[program-l] Re: VB: Reading pdf with screenreader
- From: gerald.g.weichbrodt@xxxxxx
- To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:01:39 -0400
Oh good. Then it isn't just me <grin>. Your mention of PDF as an
accessibility barrier reminds me of the bad old days when most of us used
DOS and Acrobat Reader was just another of those many programs that fell in
the, "Don't even think about it, blind people," category because the first
thing it did was put the video card into the utterly unusable graphics
mode. If people express special frustration with the whole PDF thing, I
think those who don't perhaps remember those days need to understand that
access to PDF files really has been a *long* time in coming. Good thing
Adobe has finally started getting religion in the past five years or so.
Regards,
Jerry
"Jamal Mazrui"
<Jamal.Mazrui@xxxxx To:
<program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ov> cc:
Sent by: Subject: [program-l] Re: VB:
Reading pdf with screenreader
program-l-bounce@fr
eelists.org
09/22/2005 02:29 PM
Please respond to
program-l
Hi Edward,
Naturally, we can and should put up with some reductions in comfort and
efficiency for the rewards of employment. I am talking about a degree
of problems with PDF and Adobe Reader, however, that have cumulatively
amounted to real accessibility obstacles for average blind computer
users over the years.
I do agree that version 7 of Adobe Reader has been a significant
improvement--perhaps the biggest yet over a prior version.
Unfortunately though, remaining frustrations are not rare. Windows 2000
or above is required, so those with earlier Windows versions cannot
benefit from this software. Even when we can, however, it is not smooth
sailing yet.
For example, a competent friend who runs a Windows XP laptop says that
crashes or instability with Adobe Reader are common enough that she is
reluctant to use it unless she cannot access PDF content by other means.
Also, in an earlier message today, I posted a link to a PDF I found via
Google about user interface guidelines,
http://www.gpa.etsmtl.ca/cours/gpa789/pdf/OfficialGUI.pdf
I tried all three methods of determining reading order (raw print
stream, left to right, top to bottom, and infer from document) without
success. The default, infer from document, setting took about 4 minutes
on my Windows 2000 computer, after which time it told me that the
document was too large (about 450 pages), and that I had to load only
the currently visible pages rather than the whole document. Doing so
involves a tedious reading process that does not support the continuous
read command of a screen reader. One reads a page (which may not
include much text), and then has to press Control+PageDown to wait for
the next page to load.
With the PDF example above, however, even loading only the currently
visible pages did not work. I have the latest Adobe Reader and JAWS,
yet JAWS would not read any text.
Using another PDF tool by comparison, the PDF converted to readable text
in about 15 seconds. I could also have saved as text with Adobe Reader,
though that would have taken considerably longer.
By the way, I found that the process of adding temporary tags is
applicable with the raw printstream setting as well--though it takes
perhaps a fourth of the time as the "infer from document" setting. This
can still mean minutes that the computer cannot be used for anything
else because of the hogging of the CPU by Adobe Reader.
I realize that some of this is anecdotal in nature, but it was striking
to me how quickly I encountered a PDF with significant accessibility
problems. If you happen to recall or encounter a PDF with tables
supported by JAWS table commands, I am interested in an example. For
more than simple tables, I find that understanding the relationships
between table headings and data becomes impractical otherwise.
Regards,
Jamal
-----Original Message-----
From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Edward Przybylek
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:13 PM
To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [program-l] Re: VB: Reading pdf with screenreader
Hi Jamal,
When it comes to tools for accomplishing my job, comfort is probably
one of the least of my concerns. As far as less than efficient
tools, I'm always willing to do a little extra work at home to make
up some time. I like eating, having a roof over my head and the
where-with-all to keep buying all those bright and shiny gadgets with
all the knobs and pretty lights.
As far as the raw print stream setting taking time to add tags, I
guess I don't know. It's pretty much the only setting I use so I'm
probably not the one to ask.
Take care,
Ed Przybylek
At 09:37 AM 9/21/2005, you wrote:
>You seem to have had better luck than most in this regard, since even
>with the latest Adobe Reader, it is common for blind users to report
>difficulties accessing PDF files in a comfortable, efficient manner.
>
>Concerning the raw printstream setting you use, does that avoid the
>time-consuming process of Adobe Reader adding tags to an untagged PDF?
>
>Jamal
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Edward Przybylek
>Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:27 PM
>To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [program-l] Re: VB: Reading pdf with screenreader
>
>
>Hi Jamal,
>
>Many of the specifications I've used are two to three years
>old. Tables do not read at all in those documents. However, the
>tables in the documents get parsed up in a way that makes them quite
>easy to figure out and read. I have encountered newer PDF's in which
>the tables read almost as easily as tables in a MS Word document.
>
>I've also used numerous PDF converters in the past but have found
>them all to be pretty useless. Even Scansoft's PDF Converter, a
>fairly pricy product, did a less than acceptable job. With the
>latest releases of JFW and WindowEyes, I haven't really needed any
>such product. With the efforts of Adobe and the screen reader
>companies, I don't believe it will be very long before PDF
>accessibility problems will be a thing of the past.
>
>Take care,
>Ed Przybylek
>
>
>At 10:05 AM 9/20/2005, you wrote:
> >Hi Edward,
> >Have you found PDFs that support JAWS table navigation commands? My
> >understanding is that, theoretically, this is possible with
appropriate
> >markup in a PDF that is tagged for accessibility, but I have yet to
> >encounter a PDF where such table structure is actually implemented.
> >
> >Jamal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >[mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Edward Przybylek
> >Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:53 PM
> >To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [program-l] Re: VB: Reading pdf with screenreader
> >
> >
> >Hi Che,
> >
> >I currently use both JFW V6 and WindowEyes V5. Both do a great job
> >reading PDF's. I've used them at work to read 1000 page
> >specifications full of tables and outlines. My job relies on having
> >access to these specifications and so far as I know I still have a
> >job. Give your screen reader a try before you spend money on
> >additional software.
> >
> >Take care,
> >Ed Przybylek
> >
> >At 05:16 PM 9/19/2005, you wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > I have found a couple of tutorials for visual basic that look
> > > helpful, unfortunately they are in pdf format. It has been a
while
> > > since I tried to read any pdf files with my screenreader, as it
was
> > > such a pain in the back to do. Should I see if Adobe has made any
> > > progress with their newest version of Acrobat Reader for the blind
> > > community, or get a pdf to text converter for these files?
> > > Thanks.
> > > Che
> >
> >
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