[opendtv] Re: DVB considers SVC for 1080p and hierarchical modulation
- From: "John Willkie" <johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:55:01 -0800
I'm sorry, I missed the fact that you think that 1) anybody anywhere will
ever make a hand-held or car-able 720 HD display. Did I miss the impact of
that illogical conclusion of yours? Is it even "more" likely that an HDTV
hand-held display will ever be made?
What's the smallest dot pitch you have encountered in your extensive
wanderings? What's the smallest 720 screen that can be made with that dot
pitch? Can humans make use of that dot pitch in standard hand-held or
backseat environments?
And, 2) that you think that size is the determinant of how much processing
power used in a display, not the number of pixels. In a battery
environment.
It seems to me that the more pixels driven, the more power consumed. I
think these devices have separate or integrated "drivers."
Sorry I missed that.
John Willkie
-----Mensaje original-----
De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] En
nombre de Tom Barry
Enviado el: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:38 AM
Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Asunto: [opendtv] Re: DVB considers SVC for 1080p and hierarchical
modulation
John -
Please actually read my post before attacking. Parse it carefully. Pay
special attention to the TWO different references to "the same size".
There is no way it can be construed to mean I believe large displays
take the same power as smaller ones.
- Tom
John Willkie wrote:
> Really? Aren't you an engineer? And you think that a large screen uses
the
> same amount of power as a small screen?
>
> Ever wonder why the battery for a laptop is much bigger than the battery
for
> a mobile phone? And, the battery life is much shorter?
>
> Ever wonder why the backlight on a cellphone only works for a few minutes
> after the last keypush on a cellphone on battery power, but runs all the
> time when connected to shore power?
>
> Ever wonder why the same can be seen with a laptop? Think it might have
> something to do with -- say -- the LARGE amount of power taken up by the
> screen and backlight?
>
> John Willkie
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] En
> nombre de Tom Barry
> Enviado el: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:11 PM
> Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Asunto: [opendtv] Re: DVB considers SVC for 1080p and hierarchical
> modulation
>
> Interesting.
>
> But I'm not sure that, except for decoding processing consumption, a
> 1920x1080 display needs to take any more electrical power than my
> 320x240 display on my phone if the same size. You can have more pixels
> each giving off less light, or the reverse. The total illumination and
> power consumption (display only) shouldn't have to change for any given
> display size and viewing distance. Does it? Anybody know?
>
> But if you mean Bert intends to put a 50" display in the back seat for
> the kids then I guess I agree. ;-)
>
> - Tom
>
> John Willkie wrote:
>> No, Tom. Going only by public announcements, ATSC M/H will support
> 416x240
>> video, and I haven't heard any public announcements mentioning other
video
>> formats. There was talk about an alternative video format, but it didn't
> go
>> in the direction of more pixels.
>>
>> Since you won't read it: ATSC M/H IS FOR MOBILE/PORTABLE VIDEO. 720p IS
> FOR
>> HOME USE. Just because you can put an HDTV set into an automobile
doesn't
>> mean that it's a reasonable thing to do. That takes care of mobile. How
>> many batteries do you think you'd need to carry to power a hand-held HDTV
>> set?
>>
>> Don't be confused by Bert's interest in retrofitting his HDTV set for
M/H;
>> it's pure folly.
>>
>> There are uses for SVC beyond kludigly supplementing bad codec/frame
sizes
>> written into law. Indeed, Qualcomm MediaFlo uses main and enhanced
> layers,
>> with 12/15 fps in the main, and 24/30 capability (and more pixels) in the
>> enhancement layer.
>>
>> I haven't read anything in public about M/H frame rates, so I can't go
>> further.
>>
>> John Willkie
>>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] En
>> nombre de Tom Barry
>> Enviado el: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 4:44 PM
>> Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Asunto: [opendtv] Re: DVB considers SVC for 1080p and hierarchical
>> modulation
>>
>> Will ATSC M/H even have enough throughput for a single decent 720p
>> stream after error correction? I'm not saying it won't but some other
>> figures bandied about on this list a couple months ago made me doubt
>> that. Is this public yet?
>>
>> - Tom (not on the committee)
>>
>>
>> John Willkie wrote:
>>> Sounds very kludgish to me. Wouldn't it be "neat" if ATSC M/H 1.0
>> provided
>>> support for SVC?
>>>
>>> SVC provides for a main and an enhanced layer, in my understanding,
which
>> is
>>> limited to AVC. Seems to me that you could have a 720p main layer and a
>>> 1080p enhanced layer. Not too elegant, if it works at all.
>>>
>>> John Willkie
>>>
>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>> De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
En
>>> nombre de Olivier Houot
>>> Enviado el: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 1:02 PM
>>> Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Asunto: [opendtv] DVB considers SVC for 1080p and hierarchical
modulation
>>>
>>> Some interesting perspectives in the last issue of DVB scene
>> (www.dvb.org).
>>> There is an article about SVC (scalable video coding) that says it could
>>> be useful for future 1080p services.
>>>
>>> Since current boxes would not be compliant, there would be a need to
>>> simulcast a 1080p and a 720p version of a program.
>>>
>>> They consider 13 Mbps would be needed for the 1080p stream, and 8 Mbps
>>> for 720p (perhaps a bit high, since this is the average bitrate of
>>> current 1080i broadcasts). That would be a total of 21 Mbps.
>>>
>>> But using SVC, a two layered 720p/1080p stream would use just 15,4 Mbps.
>>> I have to say it is not clear to me how current boxes could extract the
>>> 720p stream without being designed for SVC , though.
>>>
>>> Also, the idea of broadcasting a robust stream for difficult reception
>>> conditions, with additionnal layered information in a more fragile but
>>> higher bitrate stream permitted by hierarchical modulation makes a come
>>> back. Tests performed with older MPEG2 system were unable to show a
>>> clear advantage with this method in the past, but it seems the
>>> efficiency of the new SVC scheme makes it worth to reconsider.
>>>
>>> In the same DVB scene issue, they mention an OTA demo of DVB-T2 at 36
>> Mbps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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