[opendtv] Re: Continuous performance improvements or not
- From: Craig Birkmaier <craig@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:58:28 -0500
I cannot help myself...sorry folks.
I filed this message, not wishing to take the bait from Bert again
and rehash this old argument anymore. But my brain would not let go.
The misguided notions that Bert continues to propagate via this list
simply cannot be allowed to remain unchallenged.
Then again, after all of these years, we all know that this is the
game he loves to play, and I just can't resist the bait...
At 4:48 PM -0500 2/19/08, Manfredi, Albert E wrote:
Some of these, like iPods and game consoles, are fashion statements
meant to be thrown away after a year or two. At most three. Should we
take a vote and see whether the population at large considers TVs (and
refrigerators and toasters and washing machines) to be the same
category?
Sure, why not.
Anyone who would compare a TV to a washing machine or refrigerator....
Oh wait, I was looking at freezers at Best Buy yesterday and walked
right by an LG refrigerator with a TV on the door...
But that refrigerator has a computer in it and that display does MUCH
MORE than the old analog radio/TV combo that once sat on the counter
in kitchens throughout the land.
=======
A quick aside: Best Buy also had a DTV convertor Box (looks like they
have contracted a company to build it exclusively for them). They are
NOT ready for the NTIA program. No display or signage, no brochures,
nobody that knows anything about the box...
And no analog pass through.
=======
No, I do not think most consumers think of a TV in the same sense as
they think of other appliances. If anything, they may think of the
TV as an "information appliance," which they would associate more
closely with other consumer electronics devices like cellphones, DVD
players and computers. YES COMPUTERS BERT. Just walk into your local
Best Buy or Circuit City.
iPods and game consoles ARE NOT fashion statements, although, in the
case of the iPOD, "wearability" is very much part of the product
experience, and for many buyers those white ear buds do make an
important statement:
"I want to listen to MY MUSIC, not what some program director at a
radio station thinks I should listen to."
And you obviously don't have a clue about gamers'. Fashion is the
last thing they think about, and hygiene is way down the list for
many of the most rabid enthusiasts.
iPods and game consoles are purpose built computers Bert. They
process bits, run programs, and have software driven GUIs. And dare
we mention that PCs are the game machine of choice for many gamers',
especially those who like to play online games. Now the consoles are
starting to support this too.
Life expectancy is a factor. Not because the people who buy these CE
appliances expect them to die in a few years, but rather, because
they outgrow them, and look forward to the next generation and the
new things that become possible...
Like playing Blu-Ray movies on a PS3, watching video on an iPod Nano,
and surfing the web or watching a YouTube video on an iPod Touch.
Apple even has the audacity to require iPod (and iPhone) users to use
a Mac/PC -based, web connected, electronic storefront and media
management application (iTunes) with these devices.
A couple of other notes about the gaming industry:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070623-report-video-game-spending-to-surpass-music-spending-this-year.html
Report: Video game spending to surpass music spending this year
By Jacqui Cheng | Published: June 23, 2007 - 09:35AM CT
The video gaming industry is poised to overtake the music industry in
the US, with global spending on video games surpassing music spending
as soon as this year, according to consulting firm
PricewaterhouseCoopers.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2008-01-06T013106Z_01_N05262136_RTRUKOC_0_US-SHOW-VIDEOGAMES.xml
The game console industry has annual revenues of $15.8 billion in
2007 in the U.S. ALONE. And that's just for SOFTWARE ( i.e.
content). The hardware component was another $6.6 billion in 2007
Should we take a vote to see if the average consumer considers TVs to be
in the same category as PCs, including whether they consider that TVs
should become DEPENDENT on a media-center PC?
No need. Clearly, people see these as different things...that are converging.
TVs are displays that hook up to things, primarily so you can be entertained.
TVs are connected to:
Cable or DBS
DVD players (and VHS players)
Game Consoles
Video iPods, Apple TV, or a computer
And for a very small percentage of people in the U.S. - an antenna to
watch OTA broadcasts.
You might legitimately ask why Media Center PCs and Apple TVs have
not been very successful to date?
Good question Bert!
In the case of the Media Center PC it is most likely because:
1. Most people barely tolerate their PCs and hate Microsoft.
2. They're PCs stupid! Slow to boot, fragile/flaky, and way too hard to use.
3. They are too expensive for the application.
In the case of Apple TV
1. The value equation is just now coming together.
Up to now they have basically been fancy iPods for your TV. Now that
you can watch and buy/rent TV Shows and Movies the product may start
to take off. In other words, watch this space...
By the way Bert, Apple TV is a purpose built computer with a well designed GUI.
PLEASE WATCH THIS VIDEO:
http://www.apple.com/appletv/guidedtour/
Don't bother replying to this message until you have watched the video.
You may find Apple TV a little more intuitive than locating the power
monitor in your purpose built LG TV. Remember this recent post?
Excitement. Last night, buried deep in the menus, I did find where LG
now hides the signal strength monitor. It is only available if you go
into the "manual edit" option of the scanned stations, and even then, it
ain't immediately apparent. You need to start the process of adding a
station to the list, and out pops the signal monitor. Cool. What a
relief.
I guess that you DID NOT mean:
What a relief that my new TV has nothing in common with a PC
Moving on...
> The lack of performance did not cause my computer to crash and
burn. It did provide an incentive to get a new computer so that
I could do more stuff.
That's a really silly comment, Craig. Old analog TVs won't crash and
burn either. By themselves, they will simply not work for their original
intenbded purpose. That's all. Just like my old 486 machine. Or just
like an ATSC TV if H.264 becomes incorporated. You fix this with an STB,
if necessary, until you buy the new set. Big flippin' deal.
Oh my...I thought that TVs need to work for 40 years....
The point I was making is that the stuff BUILT INTO THE STANDARD from
the beginning cannot be used because some companies were too stupid
to follow the standard. Now the standard cannot be enhanced because
changing the state of a single bit/byte in a transport stream could
cause the device to literally STOP WORKNG. Not to fear however.
Blu-Ray has DRM features that allow the studios to CAUSE a player to
stop working if they think that player has been compromised. You
don't even need to have the box connected to a network. They burn the
revoked key numbers into new releases; the simple act of playing a
new movie could cause the box to stop working, if they think they
have cause.
Gotta love this line:
"You fix this with an STB, if necessary, until you buy the new set.
Big flippin' deal."
And we could have designed DTV to allow for easy low cost
extensibility from day one - just replace/upgrade the modular DTV
tuner.
Yes Bert this is a big flippin deal. It is the whole point. No
product today is going to last that long. The only reason that TVs
and Radios still work is because the politicians want it that way.
The CE industry certainly does not want it that way:
They still rue the day that they started making TVs with solid state
devices. Up until then you needed a service contract to keep a TV
going and you were damn lucky if it would last five - seven years.
The CE industry loves to keep moving consumers to new standards.
The music industry does not want it that way:
78 rpm, 45 rpm, 33 1/3 rpm, reel-to-reel tape, 8 track, compact
cassette, DAT (can't win em all), Audio CD, SCAD, MP3...
The movie industry does not want it that way:
VHS, Beta, Laserdisc, SD-DVD, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, AppleTV....
As with the NTSC bypass, let's not become overly dramatic. It sounds
really clueless, Craig. All these supposed insurmountable obstacles are
easily overcome, WHEN it becomes necessary. Meanwhile, to reiterate, the
real-world improvement of H.264 hardly seems to justify all the hype
heeped on it, for TV applications. So why the fuss? Don't worry about
it. Be happy with MPEG-2, knowing that in practice it's just as
efficient, and wait until the next big innovation comes along.
You are wrong about this.
Even your example of HD-DVD is off base. If you had a PC, you'd still
need to change the disk drive and drivers, and toss out the HD-DVD drive
and plug in the BluRay drive. What's the difference? In your home video
system, you do exactly the same thing, by thowing away the entire HD-DVD
box. I can guarantee you that if people had to make this HD-DVD to
BluRay change with PC hardware, they'd be JUST AS PISSED.
It's just a matter of perspective.
No, its a matter of betting on a product and losing that bet.
You still have the ability to play a very limited library of HD-DVD titles;
You still have a VERY GOOD upconverting SD-DVD player.
You still have a purpose built box for which the intended purpose was
not a commercial success.
Do not be afraid to join us in the 21st Century Bert.
At least you know how to use a computer.
Regards
Craig
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