[lit-ideas] Re: Lee Harvey Oswald & the Liberal Crack-Up
- From: Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 00:07:39 -0700 (PDT)
--- Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Well there I go again, not repeating large numbers
> of words I've written
> before. Whenever I assume attention spans of zero
> and comprehension of less
> there is always someone who will read my notes and
> chide me for speaking
> down to my readers as though they are children or
> saying something in print
> that any idiot knows perfectly well.
*Yeah, it shouldn't be necessary to cite today's
newspaper headline, but obviously it is. Otherwise
some on this list tend to lose contact with reality
quickly.
>
>
> "It is not a success yet," but we have defeated
> Saddam's army, gotten the
> government going, gotten support from most of the
> Shiites and perhaps all of
> the Kurds. Only the Sunnis, mostly supporters of
> Saddam with nothing to
> lose comprise the insurgents and we are training the
> Iraqis to handle these
> insurgents.
*Again, you need to read newspaper reports. Find out
about the Shiite militias and death squads. Find out
that "Iraqi army" is not projected to have an
air-force or heavy armament. And so on.
"But the leftist & Islamist
> descriptions of its being a debacle
> are absurd." There are insurgents and Islamists
> causing trouble but this
> should have been expected and doesn't comprise a
> debacle. "A lot is at
> stake in Iraq," therefore Americans should realize
> this and support our
> cause in Iraq. If someone counts himself a sincere
> American he will support
> our efforts in Iraq and support the new Iraqi
> government, hoping for its
> success.
*First, not all of us here are Americans. (You
sometimes sound like even those of us who are not from
the US have some kind of moral obligation to support
America.) Second, a sincere American might well
perceive that the Iraq adventure has failed already,
and wish to bring the troops home to prevent more
damage to the American credibility. Personally,
though, I would like the US to stay and reap as it has
sown.
"If we can help them [the Iraqis] get a
> workable non-militant
> government, the ramifications for the rest of the
> Middle East would be
> enormous. That is, the people in totalitarian or
> authoritarian states in
> the Middle East, may well understand that if the
> Iraqis can do it, they too
> can do it. The head of the Iranian Pasdaran said as
> much a few months ago.
> Authoritarian and totalitarian regimes will not wish
> Iraqi success, but if
> the Iraqi government does succeed, the Iraqi model
> of democracy may well
> spread.
*I doubt it. If the US wants Egypt or Saudi Arabia to
democratize, the most logical approach would be to ask
them to do. What impetus for democratization there is
today in the ME comes from Palestine and Lebanon, not
from the occupied Iraq.
> Actually my troops are American and not British, but
> your hostility toward
> American and British forces is duly noted.
*Again, I fail to see what kind of moral obligation I,
not being a US or British citizen, have to support the
US or British troops.
I
> would say this about what you seem to wish to be
> happening there: if that
> does happen, you will find a diminished patience
> with the Middle East in our
> congress, administration and nation.
*I hope that this is not some kind of threat, although
it sounds a bit ominous. If "diminished patience"
means less willingness to occupy countries in the ME,
I think I can live with that. If it means less support
for totalitarian or fundamentalist regimes, I think
that I can live with that too.
> But I don't think Basra is indicative of what is
> going to happen in the rest
> of Iraq. Basra is more under the sway of Iran than
> other areas of Shiite
> dominated Iraq; so it isn't surprising that they are
> not as enthusiastic
> about an Iraqi democracy as the rest.
*Oh gee, the largest and most important Shia city is
now "not indicative." What evidence do you have for
the claim that: "Basra is more under the sway of Iran
than other areas of Shiite dominated Iraq" ?
O.K.
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