Walter Okshevsky wrote: "Moral reasoning (and its institutional embodiment within constitutional democracies) concerns the obligations we have to each other as free and equal persons in a just society. B argues that our moral obligations derive from the epistemic obligations all (not just "I") must respect as rationally autonomous agents. Whether I or my tribe believe I should treat you in certain ways, it remains the case that such substantive moral beliefs must appeal to reasons and their epistemic requirements. I don't think it's accurate to say that "I believe" that to give a reason is to make a universally valid claim, open to assessment by all individuals as equals and respectful of the autonomy of the recipients of my reason-giving. It may be accurate as a report on what a particular person believes. But epistemic presuppositions/requirements of reason-giving are operative within justifiable moral deliberation and judgement not because particular people believe it's good or right that such requirements hold. Kant's claim that moral-practical reason proceeds independent of the particularities of individuals' beliefs and circumstances is relevant here. Recent revisions and interpretations of that claim within the work of Rawls, Habermas and other figures in the "deliberative democracy" tradition consequently allow greater intelligibility to the idea of the "form" of reasons, and the "form of an agent."" I am a bit confused regarding B. From an earlier post, I understood B to include the claim that moral principles develop from epistemic practices. We learn to give reasons for our actions and from these epistemic practices develop moral principles. Yet, the above seems to suggest that moral principles develop from the form of reason-giving such that what matters for the articulation of moral principles is not the reasons people actually give but that they have engaged in reason-giving. The difference between particular epistemic practices and their 'form' is important, especially for the likes of Rawls and Habermas. However B takes shape, I don't see how it escapes the problem Habermas cannot resolve, namely, the relationship between a reason and a practice. Following Habermas, the content of reasoning derives from those practices we consider good or moral. When confronted with incommensurable claims regarding what is good or moral, we turn to the epistemic practice of giving reasons. This epistemic practice is abstracted from moral activity such that the only things that matter are good reasons. A particular practice is judged based on whether good reasons can be provided, rather than on criteria internal to the practice itself. If good reasons are provided, moral principles can be formed. The problem, though, is that it is not clear how one determines a 'good reason' except without reference to the criteria internal to the moral activities to which one is committed. How can I determine a good reason for a moral principle regarding stealing without drawing on all the things I have learnt about stealing being wrong? Yet, the epistemic criterion of abstraction from those activities rules out such referencing. As Habermas makes clear, the background for determining good reasons are the moral activities I engage in, yet determining what counts as a good reason can't reference those same activities. And so we have the rather odd situation where I attempt, through good reasons, to draw moral principles from my lived moral activities, yet those good reasons are independent of those same activities. For Habermas, and perhaps Walter, the consequences are significant. If the reasoning I use to draw moral principles is abstracted from moral activity, there can be no assurance that these principles can be instantiated in moral activity. The abstraction involved in producing good reasons leaves open the question of application: what criteria exist to fix the application of moral principles? One would think that moral traditions would fit the bill but the abstraction of producing good reasons necessarily rules these traditions out. It would seem, then, that moral principles have no connection to moral activity, both in production and application, and so it isn't at all clear how meaningful such principles can be. On this point, Habermas admits the problem: there can be no certainty that moral principles developed from good reasons have any application in the lifeworld. My suggestion, returning to the distinction between reasons and their form, is twofold. First, that moral activities necessarily carry within themselves epistemic practices. I don't think it is possible to account for moral activity without reference to reason-giving and so any attempt to split off reason-giving from moral activity is artificial. Second, because moral activity involves epistemic practices, reasons articulated within any particular moral tradition can likely be translated into other moral traditions. Here we have the criterion of universalizability without the problematic attempt at abstraction. In short, I think both A and B are faulty insofar as they artificially split off the epistemic practices that are a necessary part of moral activities. The reasons we give for producing moral principles regarding stealing draw on the moral activities that contribute to our lifeworld, and we know what are good reasons for such principles precisely because our lifeworld is constituted, in part, by moral activities. Sincerely, Phil Enns Toronto, ON ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html