[PCB_FORUM] Re: how do YOU handle component spacing rules?
- From: Baumstark Michael-EMB043 <M.Baumstark@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:08:09 -0400
All:
I am not sure if I saw it stated clearly anywhere along this topic-thread...
But Allegro does provide component-type to component-type clearance checking
under DFA checks (component clearance audit) albeit a separate batch check
until on-line comp-comp is enabled at SPB 15.5. Certainly this check can be
launched anytime before end of design cycle. Anyone familiar with Mentor tools
will definitely find this "lack of robustness" for comp to comp matrix checking
as a "pain in the placement process" compared to the ease of on-line placement
checking, especially for high "pad/area" designs where excess component
clearance is scarce.
At this moment a Cadence AE is putting together a mechanism to facilitate the
capture of the clearance rules matrix, say from an excel spreadsheet matrix,
that can be easily loaded into the DFA checking values format. This mechanism
will have to suffice until 15.5.
If this level of component clearance applies to you, just as an FYI, you may
also want to ensure that you have a library maintained property dedicated to
this task. ie. Component_type = BGA, 0402,1206, SMD_under_2mm, etc. These
properties can be applicable to the footprint.
Michael Baumstark
Staff PCB Designer - Rapid Product Realization Center
Plantation, FL USA 33322-9947
Desk: 1954-723-8276
Intra: http://rprc.mot.com
web: http://www.motorola.com
--------------^------------------^-----------------^------------------^--------------
>---^-.--- >---^-.--- >---^-.---
Motorola Internal Use [ ]
Motorola Confidential Proprietary [ ]
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Carman [mailto:gcarman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:27 PM
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: how do YOU handle component spacing rules?
These tools are such that they only run post design. I need tools that will
run in the design upfront that can aid with placement based on different
manufactures' placement rules. I cannot afford the time hit of preparing a
total design to Gerber before I discover component placement problems.
I would rather prevent problems early in the design than discover same later.
An ounce of prevention...
Quite frankly I am surprised that placement rules by component type are not
already part of the Allegro tools.
Having used other tools in the past, it is really interesting on the issues
that various EDA companies focus on.
I don't know how many times some AE has tried to tell me about cross talk
test/simulators and 3D RF solvers and "silicon to board solutions", while their
tools would not let me do something as simple as making an arc by a defined
center and start and stop angles, or simply making a fabrication panel...
common day to day requests in commercial design. (I believe we had an arc
discussion last week with regard to the new fill features... not the same issue
I bring up here, but... )
To paraphrase a former presidential candidate: "its the metal, stupid."
Meaning: controlling all aspects of PWB copper is #1 priority.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chan [mailto:chan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 10:13 AM
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: how do YOU handle component spacing rules?
Adiva is providing a DFA check tools which can directly interface with
Allegro. Please check with their website for more info.
http://www.adiva.com
Cheers,
Chan
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Woytek [mailto:Tim.Woytek@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 12:49 AM
To: 'icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: how do YOU handle component spacing rules?
I am looking forward to these new checks. Currently, we do placement
checks
in VALOR as well. It takes time to do these valor checks anyway,,,,so
if I
can accomplish the same thing in Allegro (and not need to tie up a VALOR
license) then great. I assume they will have the DRC mode switch(s) to
adjust accordingly.
As for the multi-threading,,,,,,I would like to second that vote as
well.
Regards,
Tim Woytek
PCB Project Manager/Senior PCB Designer
Plexus Corporation
Technology Group
http://www.plexus.com
Office# 214-712-7316 Fax# 214-712-7301
Mobile# 254-624-3307 tim.woytek@xxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: george.h.patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:george.h.patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 11:42 AM
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: how do YOU handle component spacing rules?
On-line placement checks would be nice, but I have a concern about
adding
another layer of on-line DRC checking.
As it is, it takes 45 minutes to an hour to do a dbdoctor run on some of
our
boards, and this is on dual Xeon PCs with 1 GB of RAM. Creating and
updating modules takes similar times. Another layer of DRC checking is
going to slow the process down even more.
It would help if Cadence would start using some multi-threading in
Allegro
so it would operate more efficiently in conjunction with adding
additional
DRC checks that will slow things down even more. Even those with single
processors would benefit, at least those with hyper-threading
processors.
The other option, of course, is getting some smaller boards to work on
:)
--
George Patrick
Tektronix, Inc.
Central Engineering, PCB Design Group
P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512
Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587
http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com
It's my opinion, not Tektronix'
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Carman [mailto:gcarman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 09:19
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: how do YOU handle component spacing rules?
"Worst case" is different for different customers depending on their
manufacturing equipment and their ultimate goal for their products.
So what is worst case for one customer, could be a walk in the park for
another... Sort of like line and space rules: some can do 3/3 mils and
do
not charge a premium, others can barely do 4/4. The 3/3 guys want small
handheld products, thus they consider 3/3 a walk in the park. The 4/4
guys
want cheap products, so they push for 4/5 for cheaper processes.
Some can do stacked microvias, others cannot. It all comes down to
design
density and the customer goal.
I will have to play with the DFA rules, but it sure would be nice to
have
these as true on line DRCs. (I know, I know... future release)
Someone suggested building in the limits into my place bound layer...
great
idea... lessee that means modify the library for each design... oh
yeah,
that sounds expedient. Sorry, but that just does not sound like the
best
way to do things. Being able to change a variable in a DRC type set of
rules is the right way. I notice that this is planned for the future.
Thanks all.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin McCowan [mailto:kmccowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 6:16 AM
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: how do YOU handle component spacing rules?
Why not just make everything worst case? If you can do it
that way it seems as though everyone would be happy.
It might cause you some distress, but you wouldn't have to
make different parts for different customers and the rules
would apply. It has been they way I have always worked and
it hurts a little, sure, but it solves the problem without
a lot of tom-foolery.
And while you are figuring that out, why not alert Cadence that
this type of ruleset would be extremely useful to you.
I would certainly welcome rules of this type added to the
already formidable toolset we have.
Good luck,
Kevin McCowan
SR. PCB Designer
TSI Telsys
> -----Original Message-----
> From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Gene Carman
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 12:00 AM
> To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [PCB_FORUM] how do YOU handle component spacing rules?
>
>
> Is there a way to set a component type to component type rule? What I
=
> mean is that certain component types tend to have different rules... =
> such as 0402 to 0402 verses 0402 to SOT or BGA.
>
> The only rules I have found are pad to pad... which does not allow for
=
> different type rules.
>
> I spoke to some other designers and they offered two solutions: One
is =
> to build visual indicators into the parts so you can tell if your 0402
=
> is too close to another 0402 or BGA... great, no DRC there. The other
=
> solution is simply use grids and place them... again no DRC.
>
> I have different customers that require different spacings. One =
> customer wants 20 mils between 0402 pads, another wants 25. Customer
1 =
> wants 50 mils between BGA and 0402, customer 2 wants 40 mils between
BGA =
> and any other comp. =20
>
> With other tools I had the ability to assign components to a component
=
> type and then assign rules of type to type. I don't see a way to do =
> that in Allegro (15.1) (very similar to net type rules in Allegro, for
=
> component to component spacing)
>
> What do you do?
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> To subscribe/unsubscribe:
> Send a message to icu-pcb-forum-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> with a subject of subscribe or unsubscribe
>
> To view the archives of this list please login at
> //www.freelists.org. Our list name is icu-pcb-forum
> or go to //www.freelists.org/archives/icu-pcb-forum/
>
> Problems or Questions:
> Send an email to icu-pcb-forum-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Want to post a job listing ? DON'T DO IT HERE!
> Better yet, join our jobs listing forum.
>
> SUBSCRIBE: icu-jobs-forum-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxx
> POST: icu-jobs-forum@xxxxxxxxxx
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> To subscribe/unsubscribe:
> Send a message to icu-pcb-forum-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> with a subject of subscribe or unsubscribe
>
> To view the archives of this list please login at
> //www.freelists.org. Our list name is icu-pcb-forum
> or go to //www.freelists.org/archives/icu-pcb-forum/
>
> Problems or Questions:
> Send an email to icu-pcb-forum-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Want to post a job listing ? DON'T DO IT HERE!
> Better yet, join our jobs listing forum.
>
> SUBSCRIBE: icu-jobs-forum-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxx
> POST: icu-jobs-forum@xxxxxxxxxx
> -----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe/unsubscribe:
Send a message to icu-pcb-forum-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
with a subject of subscribe or unsubscribe
To view the archives of this list please login at
//www.freelists.org. Our list name is icu-pcb-forum
or go to //www.freelists.org/archives/icu-pcb-forum/
Problems or Questions:
Send an email to icu-pcb-forum-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Want to post a job listing ? DON'T DO IT HERE!
Better yet, join our jobs listing forum.
SUBSCRIBE: icu-jobs-forum-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxx
POST: icu-jobs-forum@xxxxxxxxxx
-----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe/unsubscribe:
Send a message to icu-pcb-forum-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
with a subject of subscribe or unsubscribe
To view the archives of this list please login at
//www.freelists.org. Our list name is icu-pcb-forum
or go to //www.freelists.org/archives/icu-pcb-forum/
Problems or Questions:
Send an email to icu-pcb-forum-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Want to post a job listing ? DON'T DO IT HERE!
Better yet, join our jobs listing forum.
SUBSCRIBE: icu-jobs-forum-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxx
POST: icu-jobs-forum@xxxxxxxxxx
-----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe/unsubscribe:
Send a message to icu-pcb-forum-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
with a subject of subscribe or unsubscribe
To view the archives of this list please login at
//www.freelists.org. Our list name is icu-pcb-forum
or go to //www.freelists.org/archives/icu-pcb-forum/
Problems or Questions:
Send an email to icu-pcb-forum-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Want to post a job listing ? DON'T DO IT HERE!
Better yet, join our jobs listing forum.
SUBSCRIBE: icu-jobs-forum-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxx
POST: icu-jobs-forum@xxxxxxxxxx
-----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe/unsubscribe:
Send a message to icu-pcb-forum-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
with a subject of subscribe or unsubscribe
To view the archives of this list please login at
//www.freelists.org. Our list name is icu-pcb-forum
or go to //www.freelists.org/archives/icu-pcb-forum/
Problems or Questions:
Send an email to icu-pcb-forum-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Want to post a job listing ? DON'T DO IT HERE!
Better yet, join our jobs listing forum.
SUBSCRIBE: icu-jobs-forum-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxx
POST: icu-jobs-forum@xxxxxxxxxx
-----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe/unsubscribe:
Send a message to icu-pcb-forum-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
with a subject of subscribe or unsubscribe
To view the archives of this list please login at
//www.freelists.org. Our list name is icu-pcb-forum
or go to //www.freelists.org/archives/icu-pcb-forum/
Problems or Questions:
Send an email to icu-pcb-forum-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Want to post a job listing ? DON'T DO IT HERE!
Better yet, join our jobs listing forum.
SUBSCRIBE: icu-jobs-forum-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxx
POST: icu-jobs-forum@xxxxxxxxxx
-----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe/unsubscribe:
Send a message to icu-pcb-forum-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
with a subject of subscribe or unsubscribe
To view the archives of this list please login at
//www.freelists.org. Our list name is icu-pcb-forum
or go to //www.freelists.org/archives/icu-pcb-forum/
Problems or Questions:
Send an email to icu-pcb-forum-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Want to post a job listing ? DON'T DO IT HERE!
Better yet, join our jobs listing forum.
SUBSCRIBE: icu-jobs-forum-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxx
POST: icu-jobs-forum@xxxxxxxxxx
-----------------------------------------------------------
Other related posts:
