[geocentrism] Re: The Trinity
- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:58:47 -0700 (PDT)
The article "a is irrelevant for my point...In fact your coment only detroys
your attempted point Chirst is not "A" god he is God........Its, realy simple
you either accept what the Holy Spirit calims or you can make up your own text
and bible to make it say or not say whatever you want like others i will not
mention here....:-)...as for the greek text you are refereing to ....all the
ones i know aggree...?
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
en arch hn o logoV kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon kai qeoV hn o logoV
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
en arch hn o logoV kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon kai qeoV hn o logoV
Byzantine Majority
en arch hn o logoV kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon kai qeoV hn o logoV
Alexandrian
en arch hn o logoV kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon kai qeoV hn o logoV
Hort and Westcott
en arch hn o logoV kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon kai qeoV hn o logoV
The botom line is the scriptures referes to Jesus as God, in fact Holy men of
God spake as they were moved by the spirit and the Holy spirit himself refers
to Christ as God, so you can attempt to appeal to whaterver acrobatic
explinations you like, at the end of the day God refers to his son as God. It
does not matter what you think he was refering to particulary when Christ said
I and my father are one .....i dont have to fully understand that but to claim
that it does not mean exactly what it sates would require 1. you to know the
exact nature of God 2. exactly what was in the mind of God when he sid that
...problem is the text is our only source and it never quilifies that. So any
other assertions may sound nice. But, they have no bases in scripture only in
men's heads according to mens ideas..........The father referes to his son as
God....He did not refer to john as God !?.... Therfore if you want to call
God's meaning into question that is your
business but come to me with "yea hath god said.." becasue God has said so
and it is suffeciant.....
Satan is out to mislead us all, and he has quite a few , probably why some
douted at his assention..........his main way is to fool us into worshipping
him rather than God. but we nor they worshiped the devill we Worship Jesus
Christ who is God. The issue is not devile worship v God worship but rather who
is the Christ..no who is the devil...?.........God knows this which is why he
has plainly revealed himself to Moses for us to indentify him. It was Christ
who was shown to moses...!?
Exodus 3:14...."I AM hath sent me unto you"
John 8:58 "before abraham was I AM..."
Revelation 1:6 .."unto God and his father..."..v8 " I am the Alpha and the
omega....the almighty"
Genisis 49:25 "and by the almighty"
Isaiah 13:6 with 2 peter 3:12.......
John 10:30.."i and my father are one" the father is spirit so he is not talking
about one flesh ...one what?........ummmmm
JOB !!:7............ummmmmm
----- Original Message ----
From: PETER CHARLTON <peter.nambo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 8:05:26 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: The Trinity
John 1.1 cannot be used to prove Jesus is God as the greek word doesnt contain
the article "a"
Elsewhere the same Greek word used to describe Paul calls him "a" god.
The translators could just as easily have called Jesus a god, and Paul God if
that had been thier wish.
Psalms 45.7 refers to Jesus being annointed as King by his God, this supports
the notion that Jesus is not God.
Hebrews 1:1 Says he spoke to us by "his son", and is called an "Hier", who sits
down at "the right hand of God" as in a right hand man, Jesus is described as
being better than the angels, hardly something that would need to be said about
God.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day
have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to
me a Son?
How does any of this support the notion that Jesus is God?, it plainly states
he is his begotten son!
Matthew 28 Jesus say all power has been given me, who gave it to him?, who can
give God anything?
Another point is God testing Abraham to see if a man would offer up his son for
God, as God offered up his son for man, he wasnt asked to offer up himself.
As for your last point, I dont agree at all, Satan is out to mislead us all,
his main way is to fool us into worshipping him rather than God. God knows this
which is why he has plainly revealed himself to Moses for us to indentify him.
The whole Triinity concept came some 300 years after Christ with the likes of
Sun Worshipper Constantine mixing his Pagan worship with flurishing
Christianity.
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Daves
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 2:29 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: The Trinity
John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were
made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In him
was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9. That
was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld
his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and
truth.
It says only my father knows it does not say that only God knows when......
Mathew 24:34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all
these things be fulfilled.
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven,
but my Father only. 37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming
of the Son of man be.
Psalms 45:7. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God,
thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hebrews 1:1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past
unto the fathers by the prophets, 2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by
his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the
worlds; 3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his
person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by
himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4.
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a
more excellent name than they. 5. For unto which of the angels said he at any
time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to
him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6. And again, when he bringeth in
the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God
worship him. 7. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and
his ministers a flame of
fire. 8. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9. Thou hast loved
righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed
thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10. And, Thou, Lord, in the
beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works
of thine hands:
Matthew 28:17. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in
heaven and in earth. 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing
them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 1:23. Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a
son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God
with us.
Aruging where and how the exact dividing line between Jesus and The Father and
the Holy Spirit is a exercise in theological futility...God did not tell us
that information and we are argogantly stupid to belive we would be capable of
Comprehending that in and of ourself's any more then ants can comprehend the
"true power" in global politics....
----- Original Message -----
From: PETER CHARLTON
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:28 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: The Trinity
Why a Trinity anyway?, a lot of scripture can be used to try and claim Jesus
and God are the same, but isnt that two?, maybe the fact that Pagan Sun gods
came in 3s has something to do with it?, maybe this is the Great Apostocy that
must come before the second coming?
As for Holy Spirit being another face of a Trinity God, God is a Spirit anyway,
Jesus informs us, is God sometimes not Holy and sometimes he is so that he
needs two forms?
Or maybe the Holy Spirit is a force God uses, he breathed Spirit into Adan to
make him come to Life, maybe Holy Spirit which Christians recieve with the
resultant display of "Fruits of the Spirit" is a better form of Gods life force
that he gives to all Humans.
As for the Bibles view of Jesus being God, lets look at a couple of scenarios
that occur in Heaven.
The first from Daniel where Jesus gains access to the throne of God where he is
given the Kingship over Gods Kingdom on Earth.
DAN 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did
sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure
wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
DAN 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand
thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before
him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
DAN 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came
with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought
him near before him.
DAN 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all
people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an
everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which
shall not be destroyed.
Why would they need to bring Jesus to the throne of God if he was God allready?
This second senario shows what Jesus does with the Kingdom he was given in the
first senario after the thousand years have ended.
1COR 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
they that are Christ's at his coming.
1COR 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority
and power.
1COR 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1COR 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1COR 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all
things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him.
1COR 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son
also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be
all in all.
So when Christ has ruled until he has brought the creation back to perfection,
what does he do?, he gives the Kingdom back to the one who gave him the Kingdom
in the first place, and verse 28 tells us that even the Son, Jesus, shall be
subjected to the one that gave him this Kingdom, that is God.
Never mind all the other Biblical evidences such as Jesus saying he doesnt know
when his second coming is, that only God knows, or the fact that Gods people,
the Jews, where informed God is One, to deferential him from all the Egyption
Trinity gods they had been exposed to.
Both the Jews and the Muslims, decendants of Abraham himself reject the
Christian Trinity.
No wonder Jesus will say to many, "!Get away from me, I never knew you"
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Lewis
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:46 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] The Trinity
Neville Jones wrote:
My faith is in our Father, not in any man. I am a Unitarian, not a Trinitarian.
Neville do you accept the first two verses of Genesis? The word 'God' used is
plural in Hebrew. Then who or what was the 'Spirit of God' that was hovering?
Is this Spirit the same as God or is it something different from God?
Gen 1:26.
Who was the 'Us' that God was referring to when he said 'Let Us make man etc.'
As I understand Neville you accept the Gospel of John or Magdalene as you you
would call it. So what do you understand about verse 1? John is clearly
referring to Jesus who was in the beginning and was God.
Now we have a plural God mentioned in verse 1, a Spirit of God and then the use
of the word 'US' in verse 26 and finally then Jesus in John 1:1. The Trinity is
mentioned immediately in the first two verses of Genesis and among many other
places in the Bible and Jesus' connection confirmed by John 1:1. It is
absolutely clear that God is not a 'unity God' but a 'Trinity God'.
Your insistence of slavishly using this single scripture "By myself I can do
nothing." to deny the Trinity in the face of the above scriptures shows your
inability to understand how God can be three distinct persons. It is purely
your inability to comprehend or willingness to accept such a concept. In spite
of your undoubted human intelligence and human reasoning powers, they just
won't stretch to comprehending the Trinity.
May I suggest you take a look at a small A5 size book that I sent to Steven
which details almost all the references to the Trinity in the Bible. But I
imagine your let-out will be that the Bible it is just a book of astrology,
except for some bits, and therefore unworthy of further investigation.
As an academic exercise why don't you check-out this book and see if it does
indeed prove the Trinity even though you reject the Bible itself. If you can
show me that it doesn't then I will personally re-think the Trinity. Please
don't cloud the issue with the introduction of extra-Biblical material. The
Bible has to stand or fall on this one issue - does the Bible supports a
Trinity Godhead?
Jack
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