The key word here is "enters".
Let's look at the rules:
*10.1.4.1 PLACING INSURRECTION CORPS:* Immediately after an enemy corps,
cossack or freikorps has entered certain Austrian border province...
you see ... has entered certain...
It all comes down to how do we define entering a province.
Do you enter the province during movement? Yes, of course.
One opinion says retreat is entering the province.
The other says it is not.
First is rather clear, you enter (movement, withdrawal, reinforcement,
what ever) and PUF, the Ins corps is there.
Second says only moment is entering, withdrawal and other cases are not.
Ok, let's look into it. Let's say we accept this opinion and in the case
we have now - Turkish corps withdraws into Hungary province. Next turn
starts and we have a situation that Turkish corps is inside the province
it never entered, it is not there yet it is there.
On 2018-02-24 20:23, NIKOLAOY DHMHTRIOS wrote:
Exactly the opposite
The rule on placing Ins XXX stating that
(1) an enemy XXX enters the area
(2) an Ins XXX may appear
(3) the enemy XXX MUST stop moving
for me it is clearly an indication that Ins XXX placement can only
happen during an enemy's movement
and retreat is not movement
Στις 2018-02-24 20:40, Yannis Sykamias έγραψε:
than you Dimitris, my understanding is that since a withdrawing corps
may not stop in an area that contains enemy forces it would have to
further retreat. This does not hinder the placement of the
insurrection corps.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of NIKOLAOY DHMHTRIOS <nikolad1@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Saturday, February 24, 2018 17:40
*To:* eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection &
Withdrawal (continued from trello)
10.1.4.1.1: If the corps are placed in the area containing the enemy
corps,
that enemy corps (but not cossack or freikorps) would have to cease its
movement.
The rule is specific applying to Ins XXX placement
Retreating XXX cannot stop in an area with enemy forces
So, imho, the intention was that Ins XXX cannot be placed during a
retreat
Στις 2018-02-24 16:11, Yannis Sykamias έγραψε:
I have no objection of discussing the use of insurrection corps
but i find it uncomfortable to discuss this issue in the middle
of the turn when a similar event occurred the previous turn. In
any case should we decide differently Prussia should retain the
right to amend his turn if he wishes so.
Now, to the essence of the discussion, i do not understand how
the term "abuse" is derived? Once again i will repeat the rule
for placement of insurrection corps
"10.1.4.1 PLACING INSURRECTION CORPS: Immediately after an
enemy corps, cossack or freikorps has entered certain Austrian
border provinces, the triggers the possible placement of the
insurrection corps and the Austrian player may (if desired) place
on-map either or both insurrection corps anywhere within that
province, at their current strength".
The rules do not state that this should be during the land phase
of the enemy but any time he crosses the border provinces, so the
rules are clear here (at least to me).
I also do not understand why the rules imply that they should
only be placed as a hindrance to movement or cut off invading
supply? I do not believe that there is a specific purpose/use
corps in the game and the rules do not direct how the player may
use his corps.
Regarding the questions Makis raised, my replies in blue
The area the Turkish corps retreated was* free of corps *when
they entered, therefore there should be no need to withdraw further.
As soon as the first corps entered the insurrection corps was
placed in that area so the area was not free of corps during the
withdrawal
There is no other case in the game where you retreat into an open
area, but have to withdraw again.
Yes, but this does not prohibit the use of the "ability" of these
corps as it is a matter of certain conditions that they may be
triggered. The conditions are not secret so every player is aware
of them and decides if he wants to trigger the placement or not.
If we wanted to allow insurrection to spawn due to the retreat,
then we should have treated them as spawing to interrupt
movement, which is their intended use.
I may not understand the term "intended use".
Otherwise we are manipulating retreat, since in every other case
someone can predict, or at least prepare a likely retreat path by
arranging his corps; but in the case with insurrection Austria
does not have to: he only has to wait to see wherever someone
withdraws and then force him to withdraw further by placing a new
corps there, already knowing he is there!
As said in the previous point, the triggering of insurrection
corps is under certain conditions which are known to all players,
so if a player wishes to trigger them it is under his knowledge.
For example in our case, if Turkey wanted to avoid the placement
of insurrections corps it could have retreated south to Gratz. I
am sure that if the battles were not in the border of the border
provinces none would have given any attention to insurrection
corps...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Saturday, February 24, 2018 15:40
*To:* eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [eiagreek] Rules clarification, Insurrection &
Withdrawal (continued from trello)
/Y: as Turkish forces enter the Hungarian province, the second
insurrection corps is raised in this area, consequently you
should continue your withdraw until you reach an open area.
/
/L: Why withdraw? You are at war. And the use of insurrections
stops the movement by default /
/M: There is no further withdrawal, Turkey remains in the area
together with the second insurection that spawned. /
/Y: According to the rules there can be no battle during
withdrawal consequently the Turkish forces should further
withdraw until they reach an open area /
/L: Ok. Makes sense /
Well, it doesn't make sense to me, so I am calling a halt here
until we discuss this: Why insurrection spawn outside movement
phase, and if they do, does it mean that retreating corps must
retreat additional areas?
To me the insurrection rule is not used as intended when you
spawn insurrection outside the enemy movement phase, because
although not expressedly forbidden, the way they are written
clearly implies they are either a hindrance to movement, or to
cut off invading armies supply. I did not debate it last time as
I am a bit bored of long rule discussions, but now I see this
will be abused. What if you had the other insurection corps
available as well, you also place that *wherever* he retreats
again, and Turkey needs to retreats 3 areas? I have never seen
anyone giving this interpretation before. We are encountering
this problem because we allowed insurection to spawn in retreats,
and we are into grey areas which are not explained. Which they
would have been explained, if it was intented for the
insurrection to be used during withdrawal phase and not as a
hidrance to movement.
The area the Turkish corps retreated was*free of corps *when they
entered, therefore there should be no need to withdraw further.
There is no other case in the game where you retreat into an open
area, but have to withdraw again. If we wanted to allow
insurrection to spawn due to the retreat, then we should have
treated them as spawing to interrupt movement, which is their
intended use. Otherwise we are manipulating retreat, since in
every other case someone can predict, or at least prepare a
likely retreat path by arranging his corps; but in the case with
insurrection Austria does not have to: he only has to wait to see
wherever someone withdraws and then force him to withdraw further
by placing a new corps there, already knowing he is there!
For me withdrawal is a case of everything "freezing" and deciding
where the troops go. There is no movement interruption, or
battle, or reinforce, or leaving/changing factors/corps, or any
interaction of any kind. There shouldn't be a spawing of
insurrection corps either.
Please voice your opinions or arguments on the matter so that we
can decide how to play.I vote that insurrection corps should
spawn only during movement, as in every other game I have played.
M.
