Exactly the opposite
The rule on placing Ins XXX stating that
(1) an enemy XXX enters the area
(2) an Ins XXX may appear
(3) the enemy XXX MUST stop moving
for me it is clearly an indication that Ins XXX placement can only
happen during an enemy's movement
and retreat is not movement
Στις 2018-02-24 20:40, Yannis Sykamias έγραψε:
than you Dimitris, my understanding is that since a withdrawing corps may not
stop in an area that contains enemy forces it would have to further retreat.
This does not hinder the placement of the insurrection corps.
-------------------------
FROM: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of NIKOLAOY DHMHTRIOS <nikolad1@xxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Saturday, February 24, 2018 17:40
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello)
10.1.4.1.1: If the corps are placed in the area containing the enemy corps,
that enemy corps (but not cossack or freikorps) would have to cease its
movement.
The rule is specific applying to Ins XXX placement
Retreating XXX cannot stop in an area with enemy forces
So, imho, the intention was that Ins XXX cannot be placed during a retreat
Στις 2018-02-24 16:11, Yannis Sykamias έγραψε:
I have no objection of discussing the use of insurrection corps but i find
it uncomfortable to discuss this issue in the middle of the turn when a
similar event occurred the previous turn. In any case should we decide
differently Prussia should retain the right to amend his turn if he wishes
so.
Now, to the essence of the discussion, i do not understand how the term
"abuse" is derived? Once again i will repeat the rule for placement of
insurrection corps
"10.1.4.1 PLACING INSURRECTION CORPS: Immediately after an enemy corps,
cossack or freikorps has entered certain Austrian border provinces, the
triggers the possible placement of the insurrection corps and the Austrian
player may (if desired) place on-map either or both insurrection corps
anywhere within that province, at their current strength".
The rules do not state that this should be during the land phase of the
enemy but any time he crosses the border provinces, so the rules are clear
here (at least to me).
I also do not understand why the rules imply that they should only be placed
as a hindrance to movement or cut off invading supply? I do not believe that
there is a specific purpose/use corps in the game and the rules do not
direct how the player may use his corps.
Regarding the questions Makis raised, my replies in blue
The area the Turkish corps retreated was FREE OF CORPS when they entered,
therefore there should be no need to withdraw further.
As soon as the first corps entered the insurrection corps was placed in that
area so the area was not free of corps during the withdrawal
There is no other case in the game where you retreat into an open area, but
have to withdraw again.
Yes, but this does not prohibit the use of the "ability" of these corps as
it is a matter of certain conditions that they may be triggered. The
conditions are not secret so every player is aware of them and decides if he
wants to trigger the placement or not.
If we wanted to allow insurrection to spawn due to the retreat, then we
should have treated them as spawing to interrupt movement, which is their
intended use.
I may not understand the term "intended use".
Otherwise we are manipulating retreat, since in every other case someone can
predict, or at least prepare a likely retreat path by arranging his corps;
but in the case with insurrection Austria does not have to: he only has to
wait to see wherever someone withdraws and then force him to withdraw
further by placing a new corps there, already knowing he is there!
As said in the previous point, the triggering of insurrection corps is under
certain conditions which are known to all players, so if a player wishes to
trigger them it is under his knowledge. For example in our case, if Turkey
wanted to avoid the placement of insurrections corps it could have retreated
south to Gratz. I am sure that if the battles were not in the border of the
border provinces none would have given any attention to insurrection
corps...
-------------------------
FROM: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Saturday, February 24, 2018 15:40
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT: [eiagreek] Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello)
Y: as Turkish forces enter the Hungarian province, the second insurrection
corps is raised in this area, consequently you should continue your withdraw
until you reach an open area.
_L: Why withdraw? You are at war. And the use of insurrections stops the
movement by default _
_M: There is no further withdrawal, Turkey remains in the area together with
the second insurection that spawned. _
_Y: According to the rules there can be no battle during withdrawal
consequently the Turkish forces should further withdraw until they reach an
open area _
_L: Ok. Makes sense _
Well, it doesn't make sense to me, so I am calling a halt here until we
discuss this: Why insurrection spawn outside movement phase, and if they do,
does it mean that retreating corps must retreat additional areas?
To me the insurrection rule is not used as intended when you spawn
insurrection outside the enemy movement phase, because although not
expressedly forbidden, the way they are written clearly implies they are
either a hindrance to movement, or to cut off invading armies supply. I did
not debate it last time as I am a bit bored of long rule discussions, but
now I see this will be abused. What if you had the other insurection corps
available as well, you also place that *wherever* he retreats again, and
Turkey needs to retreats 3 areas? I have never seen anyone giving this
interpretation before. We are encountering this problem because we allowed
insurection to spawn in retreats, and we are into grey areas which are not
explained. Which they would have been explained, if it was intented for the
insurrection to be used during withdrawal phase and not as a hidrance to
movement.
The area the Turkish corps retreated was FREE OF CORPS when they entered,
therefore there should be no need to withdraw further. There is no other
case in the game where you retreat into an open area, but have to withdraw
again. If we wanted to allow insurrection to spawn due to the retreat, then
we should have treated them as spawing to interrupt movement, which is their
intended use. Otherwise we are manipulating retreat, since in every other
case someone can predict, or at least prepare a likely retreat path by
arranging his corps; but in the case with insurrection Austria does not have
to: he only has to wait to see wherever someone withdraws and then force him
to withdraw further by placing a new corps there, already knowing he is
there!
For me withdrawal is a case of everything "freezing" and deciding where the
troops go. There is no movement interruption, or battle, or reinforce, or
leaving/changing factors/corps, or any interaction of any kind. There
shouldn't be a spawing of insurrection corps either.
Please voice your opinions or arguments on the matter so that we can decide
how to play.I vote that insurrection corps should spawn only during
movement, as in every other game I have played.
M.
