Thank you Tiron! My thoughts exactly!
Looking at the map after the battle of the previous turn is an evidence that
the placement of the insurrection corps during combat reinforcement was correct
since 6 corps entered the province and were there at the end of the turn! If
the triggering was not allowed then this would be a bug to enter border
provinces without allowing the Austrian player to place insurrection corps.
Same goes for withdrawals. If I do not have the option to place insurrection
corps then Turkey is allowed to start its turn inside the border province
without triggering insurrection corps which would again be a bug in the
activation!
________________________________
From: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Tiron <strategija@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 9:45:31 PM
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello)
The key word here is "enters".
Let's look at the rules:
10.1.4.1 PLACING INSURRECTION CORPS: Immediately after an enemy corps, cossack
or freikorps has entered certain Austrian border province...
you see ... has entered certain...
It all comes down to how do we define entering a province.
Do you enter the province during movement? Yes, of course.
One opinion says retreat is entering the province.
The other says it is not.
First is rather clear, you enter (movement, withdrawal, reinforcement, what
ever) and PUF, the Ins corps is there.
Second says only moment is entering, withdrawal and other cases are not. Ok,
let's look into it. Let's say we accept this opinion and in the case we have
now - Turkish corps withdraws into Hungary province. Next turn starts and we
have a situation that Turkish corps is inside the province it never entered, it
is not there yet it is there.
On 2018-02-24 20:23, NIKOLAOY DHMHTRIOS wrote:
Exactly the opposite
The rule on placing Ins XXX stating that
(1) an enemy XXX enters the area
(2) an Ins XXX may appear
(3) the enemy XXX MUST stop moving
for me it is clearly an indication that Ins XXX placement can only happen
during an enemy's movement
and retreat is not movement
Στις 2018-02-24 20:40, Yannis Sykamias έγραψε:
than you Dimitris, my understanding is that since a withdrawing corps may not
stop in an area that contains enemy forces it would have to further retreat.
This does not hinder the placement of the insurrection corps.
________________________________
From: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx><mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of NIKOLAOY DHMHTRIOS <nikolad1@xxxxxxxxx><mailto:nikolad1@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 17:40
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal
(continued from trello)
10.1.4.1.1: If the corps are placed in the area containing the enemy corps,
that enemy corps (but not cossack or freikorps) would have to cease its
movement.
The rule is specific applying to Ins XXX placement
Retreating XXX cannot stop in an area with enemy forces
So, imho, the intention was that Ins XXX cannot be placed during a retreat
Στις 2018-02-24 16:11, Yannis Sykamias έγραψε:
I have no objection of discussing the use of insurrection corps but i find it
uncomfortable to discuss this issue in the middle of the turn when a similar
event occurred the previous turn. In any case should we decide differently
Prussia should retain the right to amend his turn if he wishes so.
Now, to the essence of the discussion, i do not understand how the term "abuse"
is derived? Once again i will repeat the rule for placement of insurrection
corps
"10.1.4.1 PLACING INSURRECTION CORPS: Immediately after an enemy corps, cossack
or freikorps has entered certain Austrian border provinces, the triggers the
possible placement of the insurrection corps and the Austrian player may (if
desired) place on-map either or both insurrection corps anywhere within that
province, at their current strength".
The rules do not state that this should be during the land phase of the enemy
but any time he crosses the border provinces, so the rules are clear here (at
least to me).
I also do not understand why the rules imply that they should only be placed as
a hindrance to movement or cut off invading supply? I do not believe that there
is a specific purpose/use corps in the game and the rules do not direct how the
player may use his corps.
Regarding the questions Makis raised, my replies in blue
The area the Turkish corps retreated was free of corps when they entered,
therefore there should be no need to withdraw further.
As soon as the first corps entered the insurrection corps was placed in that
area so the area was not free of corps during the withdrawal
There is no other case in the game where you retreat into an open area, but
have to withdraw again.
Yes, but this does not prohibit the use of the "ability" of these corps as it
is a matter of certain conditions that they may be triggered. The conditions
are not secret so every player is aware of them and decides if he wants to
trigger the placement or not.
If we wanted to allow insurrection to spawn due to the retreat, then we should
have treated them as spawing to interrupt movement, which is their intended use.
I may not understand the term "intended use".
Otherwise we are manipulating retreat, since in every other case someone can
predict, or at least prepare a likely retreat path by arranging his corps; but
in the case with insurrection Austria does not have to: he only has to wait to
see wherever someone withdraws and then force him to withdraw further by
placing a new corps there, already knowing he is there!
As said in the previous point, the triggering of insurrection corps is under
certain conditions which are known to all players, so if a player wishes to
trigger them it is under his knowledge. For example in our case, if Turkey
wanted to avoid the placement of insurrections corps it could have retreated
south to Gratz. I am sure that if the battles were not in the border of the
border provinces none would have given any attention to insurrection corps...
________________________________
From: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx><mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx><mailto:makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 15:40
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Rules clarification, Insurrection & Withdrawal (continued
from trello)
Y: as Turkish forces enter the Hungarian province, the second insurrection
corps is raised in this area, consequently you should continue your withdraw
until you reach an open area.
L: Why withdraw? You are at war. And the use of insurrections stops the
movement by default
M: There is no further withdrawal, Turkey remains in the area together with the
second insurection that spawned.
Y: According to the rules there can be no battle during withdrawal consequently
the Turkish forces should further withdraw until they reach an open area
L: Ok. Makes sense
Well, it doesn't make sense to me, so I am calling a halt here until we discuss
this: Why insurrection spawn outside movement phase, and if they do, does it
mean that retreating corps must retreat additional areas?
To me the insurrection rule is not used as intended when you spawn insurrection
outside the enemy movement phase, because although not expressedly forbidden,
the way they are written clearly implies they are either a hindrance to
movement, or to cut off invading armies supply. I did not debate it last time
as I am a bit bored of long rule discussions, but now I see this will be
abused. What if you had the other insurection corps available as well, you also
place that *wherever* he retreats again, and Turkey needs to retreats 3 areas?
I have never seen anyone giving this interpretation before. We are encountering
this problem because we allowed insurection to spawn in retreats, and we are
into grey areas which are not explained. Which they would have been explained,
if it was intented for the insurrection to be used during withdrawal phase and
not as a hidrance to movement.
The area the Turkish corps retreated was free of corps when they entered,
therefore there should be no need to withdraw further. There is no other case
in the game where you retreat into an open area, but have to withdraw again. If
we wanted to allow insurrection to spawn due to the retreat, then we should
have treated them as spawing to interrupt movement, which is their intended
use. Otherwise we are manipulating retreat, since in every other case someone
can predict, or at least prepare a likely retreat path by arranging his corps;
but in the case with insurrection Austria does not have to: he only has to wait
to see wherever someone withdraws and then force him to withdraw further by
placing a new corps there, already knowing he is there!
For me withdrawal is a case of everything "freezing" and deciding where the
troops go. There is no movement interruption, or battle, or reinforce, or
leaving/changing factors/corps, or any interaction of any kind. There shouldn't
be a spawing of insurrection corps either.
Please voice your opinions or arguments on the matter so that we can decide how
to play.I vote that insurrection corps should spawn only during movement, as in
every other game I have played.
M.
