[dungeoncrawl] Re: Hello?
- From: Damon Kline <damon.kline@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:34:46 -0500
Okay, I can chime in now that I've read through the emails. I agree with
John that we are all adults and we are all capable of keeping our characters
separate from ourselves. It is a credit to us, as role-players, that we can
do that and still keep our characters as vivid as possible.
However, I also know that when we "get into" our characters, especially when
they are upset or angry, we can get so into it that it seems that we are
upset or angry as well. I guess I just want to reiterate the fact that we
are role-playing, so that no feelings get hurt.
I'm not suggesting that we tone down the characters personalities at all. I
think that would do the campaign a great injustice. I'm merely saying that
we should just keep it in mind that we are not our characters and "the
opinions and ideas expressed by these characters do not necessarily reflect
the opinions and views of this station...". Does anyone remember that
little blurb at the beginning of some TV shows that were considered
"controversial"?
Anyway, I think that both Bobby and Jim are doing a wonderful job playing
their characters and keeping them true to their personalities, but I just
wanted to point out that this is not a "Bobby versus Jim" scenario; this is
a "Tori/Kage mutual dislike" scenario. That is all.
Perhaps I was being a bit too cautious, but I'd rather be cautious than have
this boil over into something else. Just in case.
So, carry on with the jibes back and forth at one another. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnathan Detrick [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:19 AM
To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Hello?
But Cullen didn't want to kill Kage! He just wanted an opportunity to
get
out his anger, and he figured they could beat the living crap out of each
other! Trust Kage to deny him even that small satisfaction.
Jim and Karen wrote:
> I think part of my concerns also came from the fact that I am playing such
a
> jerk. That can really wear on some people - imagine if certain players
ever
> encountered this guy? I could easily see someone taking his attitude
> personally and thinking that I play all of my characters that way.
>
> I genuinely feel that Kage deserves whatever he gets - he has his points,
> but he does provoke conflict. He had his reasons for not opposing Cullen,
> and they may come out Monday, but I would've enjoyed Cullen finding a way
to
> kill him.
>
> The impression that Tori was gunning for Kage seemed to be spreading,
> though - most likely because she seemed to be going so far to ignore him
> from the time they met. In the old days, when Kage was trying to force
> Arkette (Keith's mage) or Cullen to obey him, he'd threaten expulsion from
> the party and lecture the group on the importance of following a leader in
a
> crisis. He's just too much into his own goals right now to bother with
> that.
>
> Maybe out of the group discussion, I'll send some more candid remarks on
why
> I'm leery of playing such characters around certain people - but I might
> save that for a slower day. :)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Deibler" <rdeibler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:39 AM
> Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Hello?
>
> > Yeah is just a game. I just wanted to make sure everyone did not get the
> impression that Tori was actively seeking a fight with Kage, She would
> actually just ignore him for the most part except when he would talk to
her
> or tell her what to do. Other then that she really does not acknowledge
him.
> In the back of her mind she really wants to know where they picked him up.
I
> think the group feels she is on teh edge and is going to crack at any
> moment.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Johnathan Detrick [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Wed 11/27/2002 7:24 AM
> > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Cc:
> > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Hello?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I was going to mention how happy I was not to be the one discussing
> this
> > sort of thing for once. I was safely in bed when this was going down.
I
> have
> > an alibi officer! :)
> > Honestly Bobby, we have played with some thin skinned people over
the
> years,
> > so I understand Jim's concern. I'm glad you guys have come to a point
> where you
> > understand each other. I'm very interested in Monday. Cullen has a few
> things
> > to say as well, and some unresolved issues, and I'm curious what the
> mysterious
> > happenings are, and what they might do to the group.
> >
> > Jim and Karen wrote:
> >
> > > Ah, grasshopper...you need an explanation! :)
> > >
> > > Back in the day, Charlie Hickey (do you know him?) used to call John
and
> I
> > > "Zebedee's Sons". That's because in the Gospel, Jesus had two
> brothers -
> > > James and John - who argued constantly. I can't help but smile when I
> think
> > > of John, but we've had legendary (and now amusing) altercations over
the
> > > years.
> > >
> > > And since we've played D&D so much, they've invariably spilled over.
I
> > > wouldn't trade anything for those disagreements, since we've learned
so
> much
> > > from them, but Damon would be nuts not to try to prevent any such
thing
> from
> > > happening again. :) That's just my theory, but you deserve to at
least
> > > have the info so you can infer what you can on your own. :)
> > >
> > > Also, as far as why I focused so much on Tori's intentions and the
> "bully"
> > > theory, like I said, I myself have a deep-seated disgust for bullies.
> I'm
> > > mostly over it now, but for years, I lived with serious regret that I
> never
> > > gave in to my rage in high school and concaved the skull of some of
the
> > > bullies who tormented me. I was too decent to lower myself, but for a
> while
> > > it was more annoying because I could have gotten away with quite a bit
> and
> > > only been sent to reform school. :)
> > >
> > > So anyway, reading a description of Tori that she's like a person
> picking on
> > > a geek at replaced everything else I read as I made an opinion of the
> > > character. I was picturing cement rollers at that point, and they
don't
> > > even exist in the setting. :)
> > >
> > > Ok, enough with the explanations. It was really important to me that
> this
> > > be discussed, because like I mentioned, BIG BIG things are in store
for
> Kage
> > > on Monday. And he's going to hate every minute of it. But
considering
> that
> > > it's been a long time in coming, I'd hate to see it be marred if some
> > > misunderstanding existed that could have been rectified beforehand.
> > >
> > > I hope this makes sense, and that I don't come across in the wrong way
-
> I
> > > never thought badly of you, I just didn't understand how you were
> > > approaching things. Now I think we're on track to have a lot of fun
> next
> > > week. Even if things go badly between Kage and Tori, I'll know that
> it's
> > > because you are a creative genius and are visualizing something really
> cool.
> > >
> > > If you played with some of the players I have, you'd really understand
> how I
> > > can be paranoid. :) Purina, anyone?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Robert Deibler" <rdeibler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 10:28 PM
> > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Hello?
> > >
> > > > No...Please do not think she is a bully infact she would rather not
> fight
> > > (unless hated foe) she just want to get this over with and move on but
> make
> > > sure the party make it aout alive as well. If you would of parried she
> > > wouldn't have shot but an attck where you continue the altercation yes
> she
> > > woudl have, She viewed she needed to protect Cullen. Buts she does not
> try
> > > to pull of teh persona of a bully. In fact she should be just teh
> opposite,
> > > She usually just sits back in the back, but is not afraid to speak her
> mind,
> > > and will NEVER just follow orders by anyone she does not deem worthm
> > > magister mystra kage or whoever. But please look at sharp tongued
> > > bystander. I never meant to give teh impression of a bully.
> > > >
> > > > What made you think of her in this light? (Did I roll play something
> in
> > > this manner from what I can recall she just never listened to orders
> never
> > > bullied anyone around. Even in the Kage tori mouth battles its never
> been a
> > > bulling thing just insults)
> > > >
> > > > I guess I am missing something what is Damon and yourself worreid
> about us
> > > playing out??
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Jim and Karen [mailto:jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > Sent: Tue 11/26/2002 10:21 PM
> > > > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Cc:
> > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Hello?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think we may have all inadvertently created a situation where two
> > > similar
> > > > characters (in approach, if not morals) were put in direct conflict
> with
> > > > each other.
> > > >
> > > > Kage, for example, is exactly what Tori thinks he is, but he's also
> the
> > > > exact opposite. (And by the way, I'm glad you're home. :) ). He
> started
> > > out
> > > > fully intending to lead the group into certain doom, but since that
> time,
> > > > he's actually come to like them. And believe it or not, he's nagged
> the
> > > > group (and the Magister) about the need to rescue Tori on at least
six
> or
> > > > seven occasions. Not that he'd ever tell her that, but he wanted
the
> > > group
> > > > to get a morale boost from her return. So for years, he's been
> > > anticipating
> > > > the chance to meet this person who he's heard so many good things
> about,
> > > and
> > > > so far he's completely disappointed (mostly because she isn't
blindly
> > > > obedient).
> > > >
> > > > But more importantly, even though Tori was there in the beginning,
the
> > > group
> > > > has been through a huge amount of crazy s**t since she left. And
Kage
> > > took
> > > > them all through it, with no casualties, until Matt decided to
retire
> one
> > > of
> > > > his characters. Most of the time, he took the brunt of the
punishment
> to
> > > > keep everyone else safe. So even though he doesn't show it, I see
the
> > > > character as being furious at being so put down about a job that he
> didn't
> > > > even want by a person that he doesn't even know.
> > > >
> > > > What's difficult for me is the fact that what you're having Tori do
> makes
> > > > perfect sense, to a point. I don't fully understand her
personality,
> so
> > > the
> > > > potion wasting thing is still confusing, but I generally can relate
to
> > > where
> > > > she's coming from. But like John mentioned last week, if she had
> launched
> > > > some arrows at Kage (say, for example, if he parried Cullen), she
> might
> > > have
> > > > been on the bad end of some totally unexpected party loyalty on his
> > > behalf.
> > > > But it's just something that we need to roleplay carefullly if such
a
> > > thing
> > > > does come from any of this.
> > > >
> > > > At this point, I have two worries (and one of them is enough for me
to
> > > sort
> > > > of dread Monday): (1) That someone will take things the wrong way
> from
> > > > well-intentioned roleplaying, and (2) that the years of work I've
put
> into
> > > > developing Kage's back story will be thrown aside when they come to
a
> head
> > >
> > > > on Monday because of a character who thinks she's the best
schoolyard
> > > bully
> > > > since sliced bread (hence my wedgie earlier). :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Robert Deibler" <rdeibler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:58 PM
> > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Hello?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I don't think that would happen, I don't see them in a violent
> > > > relationship or running down to a showdown. Tori will eventually
just
> > > learn
> > > > to ingore him, he is like a new wound (say a Hang nail) you keep
> picking
> > > at
> > > > it until it get dull and then you jeut learn to let it alone.
> Eventually
> > > it
> > > > will go away. Tori would not have want to attack you but two factors
> > > played
> > > > into hit the big fight previous to thettck and these folks were her
> hated
> > > > enemies so her blood was hot. She really will either learn to ignore
> him
> > > or
> > > > pick up an extra skill of Kage Heckling. But I really do not see it
> coming
> > > > down to a fight. (unless he attacks a party member or harms on in a
> > > > malicious way)
> > > > >
> > > > > I actually forgot about teh healing thing. she was just being
> spitefull.
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Jim and Karen [mailto:jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > Sent: Tue 11/26/2002 9:57 PM
> > > > > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Cc:
> > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Hello?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I see what you're saying on the bow thing - it's not something
that
> he
> > > > > should base his opinion on. I guess it's more for my benefit,
that
> it
> > > > seems
> > > > > like she thinks it's in the group's best interest to off him if
> given a
> > > > > plausible reason.
> > > > >
> > > > > To be honest, the "geek" thing sort of rankled me automatically -
I
> have
> > > a
> > > > > deep-seated dislike of people who would single anyone out to treat
> like
> > > a
> > > > > "geek", and it's hard to see that as a good quality for a
character.
> > > But
> > > > I
> > > > > didn't take it as a sign of your own point of view.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just as explanation, his handling of Tori with the orc incident
came
> > > from
> > > > > his own point of view that he was in a situation where all of the
> > > sailors
> > > > > were dead, one orc was alive, and he had no idea of where thy were
> or
> > > why
> > > > > they were fighting - he was fine with killing the orc, but
couldn't
> > > > > understand why another minute to do so mattered.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think his own low opinion of Tori was solidified when she wasted
a
> > > > healing
> > > > > potion just to make a point - it seemed like a really dumb thing
to
> do
> > > to
> > > > > him.
> > > > >
> > > > > Personally, I like your character, and I think you're doing a fine
> job
> > > > > running her - but I do agree with Damon that we both need to be
> careful
> > > > > playing this out. Just like Cullen and Kage fighting could lead
> John
> > > and
> > > > I
> > > > > down the path of role confusion, I'd hate to see the same thing
> happen
> > > > > between you and me -
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Robert Deibler" <rdeibler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > To: <dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:33 PM
> > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Hello?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > If you would have "attacked" (as she would have percieved it)
> Cullen
> > > yes
> > > > > she would have attacked you, but you have to see it through her
eyes
> she
> > > > has
> > > > > known Cullen from the beginning of the adventure, she sees you as
an
> > > > > outsider and the whole Orc display at the beach just rubbed her
the
> > > wrong
> > > > > way. She would not just attack him randomly but she would defend
her
> > > > > friends. (He would not have seen her aim her bow at him anyways so
> he
> > > > would
> > > > > not judge her either way for that. She was behind him and up in
the
> air,
> > > > so
> > > > > no one would have really noticed her except if they were flying.)
> She
> > > > really
> > > > > could care less about you and wants to be left alone. (does that
> make
> > > any
> > > > > sense???)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She is defiantly not a bully in anyway.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In fact she would rather just stay to herself actually some
where
> in
> > > the
> > > > > woods, but unfortunately it did not happen this way, and the gods
> have
> > > her
> > > > > running through the underdark which she does not like, (use to be)
> lead
> > > my
> > > > a
> > > > > human dominate male that has rubbed her the wrong way on several
> > > occasions
> > > > > (intentionally in her mind.). She would rather just ignore Kage
like
> she
> > > > did
> > > > > on the boat when he gave her that order. She is actually quiet the
> women
> > > > > when people get to know her and she is not fighting in hostile
> > > territory.
> > > > > Remember back when Purina was with us. We had stopped at a bar,
she
> got
> > > > all
> > > > > cleaned and dressed up and went dancing and drinking. (But stayed
> with
> > > the
> > > > > guys she knew not strangers, when the night rolled on she hung out
> in
> > > the
> > > > > corner watching people) So I really just see her as socially
> challenged
> > > > when
> > > > > it comes to strangers and especially bossy strangers. If Kage
would
> have
> > > > > taken his first angle of saying hello this would have probably
turn
> out
> > > > all
> > > > > different.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tori and Her quick perceptions of the characters:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Whilce:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She like Whilce, his care free nature and plain old no common
> sense
> > > > makes
> > > > > her laugh. She often keeps and eye on him (likes he need it) in
> combat
> > > so
> > > > > his new experiences does not get him next deep in trouble. Tori
does
> not
> > > > > totally trust him in combat and feels he is a bit wild to put in a
> > > > strategic
> > > > > place unless there is a catch for his attention to stay there. She
> feels
> > > > > free to talk with Whilce, even trust him to a point in battle.
While
> > > > sitting
> > > > > in a camp fire she would openly hold discussions with him.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cullen:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She trusts Cullen the most as far as leading the group wisely
and
> not
> > > by
> > > > > the spur of his pants. She has her doubts at his young age and
> > > experience
> > > > in
> > > > > combat but has noticed he has matured a lot since their last
combat
> > > > > together. Again at the campfire she would talk openly with him and
> often
> > > > > exchanges advice with him when the opportunity presents itself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neris:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She understands the quietness of Neris and respects his skills,
> she
> > > > knows
> > > > > he can hold the key to victory in many battle yet fought with his
> skill
> > > in
> > > > > the shadows and powerful and accurate shot. If Neris would she
would
> > > hold
> > > > > ranger like conversations. She trusts him in a fight not to just
> dump
> > > the
> > > > > group and take cover. Even if he is not seen for a round or two
she
> > > knows
> > > > > the missile fire will soon begin. Tori would have no problem
> following
> > > > Neris
> > > > > as a leader.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ivan:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She does not know him to judge him, so far he seems ok friendly
> and
> > > > caring
> > > > > of the group, but she would like to keep her distance from him
until
> > > such
> > > > > time that his true colors need be shown. In a campfire she would
not
> > > > > converse with him and if talked to would only reply with polite
> short
> > > > crisp
> > > > > closed ended answers
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Altoro:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She was originally held captive with altoro by the orcs, in
there
> > > escape
> > > > > and the battle that followed she learned to like the little fellow
> (even
> > > > if
> > > > > heÃffÃ,¢?Ts a dwarf). Often during the camp fire she would hold
> talks
> > > ranging
> > > > > from any topic he would want to talk about. They in the past would
> hold
> > > > > religious conversations. In a fight she has complete trust for
> > > altoroÃffÃ,¢?Ts
> > > > > fighting prowess and decision making. She would have no problems
> > > following
> > > > > him as a leader.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kage
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As we talked about she is not openly hostile to him (except in
> terms
> > > of
> > > > > hostile talks), but if talked to her she would answer in sarcastic
> crisp
> > > > > tones just in the hopes of having him not talk to her again. She
> does
> > > not
> > > > > trust him combat or to follow any of his orders. Around the
campfire
> she
> > > > > would not talk to him or hang out at the fire if the conversation
> > > > pertained
> > > > > him and it would appear to have a chance to make them communicate.
> She
> > > > does
> > > > > not openly start hostile conversation either but if he talks to
her
> > > > itÃffÃ,¢?Ts
> > > > > bound to turn that way with his jabs at her.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tori:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She does not trust her and does not communicate to her at all
even
> > > when
> > > > > talked to. Kage at least has a degree of trust from the entire
party
> so
> > > he
> > > > > can not be 100% bad (99.9%). But Liz where did she come from, the
> last
> > > act
> > > > > last night walked a fine line. Tori wants to keep an eye on her.
It
> Liz
> > > a
> > > > > talks with her she just walks away or leaves the area. If she has
to
> > > talk
> > > > > with her she refers to her as girl. There is no trust what so ever
> in
> > > > regard
> > > > > to combat situations or watch.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So she is talkative and friendly once a friendship is
established.
> The
> > > > > geek comment was just a reference she does not think him a geek.
I
> used
> > > > the
> > > > > wrong analogy sorry the confusion. The point I was trying to get
> across
> > > is
> > > > > how you try to avoid people and not talk to them or openly avoid
> bumping
> > > > > into them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > Sent: Tue 11/26/2002 11:49 AM
> > > > > > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Cc:
> > > > > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Hello?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Guys, I hope my last email wasn't taken
> > > > > > the wrong way - it sure got quiet awful
> > > > > > fast! I'll hang around another five
> > > > > > minutes or so, in case anyone's still
> > > > > > at work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Basically, I want to know Tori's
> > > > > > motivation (at least how she comes
> > > > > > across to Kage). He'll handle things
> > > > > > differently if it's obvious that she's
> > > > > > really just a dominator and not a
> > > > > > naive, but forceful, person who means
> > > > > > well. Make
> > > > > > sense/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
> > > > > > -- Type: application/ms-tnef
> > > > > > -- File: winmail.dat
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
> > > > > -- Type: application/ms-tnef
> > > > > -- File: winmail.dat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
> > > > -- Type: application/ms-tnef
> > > > -- File: winmail.dat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
> > -- Type: application/ms-tnef
> > -- File: winmail.dat
> >
> >
> >
> >
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