[dungeoncrawl] Re: Campaign Thoughts
- From: jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx
- To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:03:36 US/Eastern
I'm pretty psyched right now too. I'm
enjoying DMing, and am looking forward
to doing something more action-packed.
Monday should have its share of
surprises as well - I think the group
under Sigil should be in for quite a
challenge as they try to recover the
evil sword that Sonya used to kill the
paladin.
>
> I wanted to mention something
that I found interesting as well.
> Just talking about D&D the past few
days, has rekindled my interest in
> playing again. I'm getting quite
psyched to play on Monday.
>
> jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > I thought I remembered Nadan's papa
> > coming back as a good person? It's
> > been a while. That's a good
example of
> > why things work better now - people
who
> > are DMing collaborate more with
people
> > who are playing. Things that are
> > totally unworkable seem a lot rarer.
> >
> > I brought up plot reversal mostly
> > because I think it happens when new
DMs
> > inherit something that seems to put
> > them in a straightjacket, or has no
> > potential. I'd like the ultimate
world
> > that gets created to be a
springboard
> > for new ideas, not a hindrance.
Thus
> > the long emails this morning about
> > expectations and the like.
> >
> > And I also see this as a
great "style
> > point" way to end the campaign. You
> > don't get this sort of chance too
> > often, and I really want to see how
it
> > all turns out. To be honest, I
have no
> > idea what Celane's ultimate fate
is -
> > she has both the Riders and the
Black
> > Legion coming after her - and all I
can
> > hope is that Dennis somehow survives
> > it. :)
> >
> > >
> > > Yeah, I was amazed with how
you
> > introduced Quincy as well. It was
> > > very much the sort of
introduction I
> > would have done. Of course, you
> > > still added something I wouldn't
> > have. You built it up so Magnus
> > > thought he was getting someone
good,
> > only to be disappointed when it was
> > > Quincy. It was a great touch, and
> > the sort of thing that you do that
> > > never occurs to me.
> > > I think your style is great,
and
> > you could create a very detailed
> > > and intricate campaign, which is
> > exactly what you did with the
> > > Fellowship of Sundyr. Alas, time
is
> > no longer our friend. In many
> > > ways, I again liken it to The X-
> > Files. When they had a series, they
> > > could do all kinds of stories, and
> > really take their time. Hey, they
> > > were doing 22 hours or so a year,
and
> > they filled it with some gems
> > > (like the Bermuda Triangle
episode).
> > Now that they are doing movies
> > > (say 2 hours every other year),
they
> > won't be able to do that. Things
> > > will have to move faster, and
while
> > every movie should be excellent, and
> > > better than any single episode of
the
> > series, the little gems will be no
> > > more. We just have to make the
best
> > of it.
> > > As for the end of this plot,
my
> > expectations are very simple. I
> > > expect the Riders to become
deities
> > of this world. Failing that, I
> > > expect them to be in a situation
> > where they can change what occurred.
> > > My example about the Black Legion
> > from the previous e-mail is a
perfect
> > > example of what I mean by being
able
> > to change what happened. What I
> > > would hate to see is the rug
pulled
> > out from under them. I see this as
> > > the perfect chance to end the
longest
> > campaign we have ever had, as well
> > > as allow our characters to retire
> > with the most style points
available.
> > > Note that I don't expect Magnus to
> > survive, or any one character to
> > > survive. But yes, I do think the
> > Riders will win.
> > > As for plots being reversed,
> > we've been over this numerous times.
> > > All of us do it to each other.
You
> > reverse my plots, I reverse yours,
> > > and all of us reversed Damon's
when
> > the giant robot invaded Elven Flow
> > > (and for that matter, we won't
even
> > discuss when Keith had the Riders
> > > fight Transformers). We've all
been
> > there, and we all know that it can
> > > be frustrating. It's one of the
main
> > reasons that we have not changed
> > > the Chosen back. Braun is still a
> > Figurine of Wondrous Power, and
Wolfe
> > > still doesn't have any bloody
items
> > (which means that I now have to give
> > > him to Matt to play). We've left
> > what happened stand, and I think we
do
> > > that more often that we used to.
> > > By the way, we never reversed
> > what happened with Nadan's father.
I
> > > wasn't happy about it at the time,
> > but it still stands. Nadan just
> > > doesn't talk about his father a
lot,
> > and when he does, he tends to speak
> > > of him as he always did. Nadan
feels
> > that he had already built his
> > > father up into this larger than
life
> > figure, and that's who he chooses
> > > to remember. But his father is
still
> > an evil villain.
> > >
> > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think you covered it pretty
well,
> > and
> > > > reassured me on the important
stuff.
> > > >
> > > > You're right on character
> > introduction -
> > > > it's sort of funny, but when
you
> > posed
> > > > that scenario, my first thought
> > > > was, "Ugh. That's a lot of
work! I
> > > > always have to give those
situations
> > > > such thought, and it takes
forever."
> > > >
> > > > Like the recent introduction of
> > > > Quincy. In the back of my
mind, a
> > > > little voice is still
saying, "You
> > > > should have developed a
backstory
> > for
> > > > John of where Quincy has been
on the
> > > > planes. It would help him to
> > > > understand what happened since
the
> > > > character was seen last."
Or, "That
> > > > was sort of a contrived way to
bring
> > > > him in - just coming through a
> > portal
> > > > like that. There should have
been a
> > > > better explanation, or it
doesn't
> > quite
> > > > hold up for this reason" - etc.
> > > >
> > > > If I had a bit more talent, a
lot
> > more
> > > > patience, and even more time, I
> > could
> > > > easily write something as
lengthy as
> > > > war and peace. This might sound
> > odd or
> > > > sick, but I LIKE the fact that
the
> > > > Tolkien books are long on
> > explanation.
> > > > It makes it more real for me.
> > > >
> > > > Like the adventures we're
currently
> > > > doing - personally, I'm far more
> > > > interested in things like the
> > history
> > > > of the Green Mill Inn or its
place
> > in
> > > > the local economy than in how
well
> > it
> > > > suits the characters as a
temporary
> > > > base. That's why Dennis, on
first
> > > > visiting, said, "The Green Mill
> > Inn! I
> > > > have long heard of this place
from
> > > > songs and legends, but never
> > realized
> > > > that I would actually see it."
> > > >
> > > > It could be, and I'm cool with
it if
> > > > such is the case, that none of
the
> > > > players that night even caught
the
> > > > comment, let alone used it to
build
> > an
> > > > idea that the inn they're
staying
> > in is
> > > > legendary somewhere.
> > > >
> > > > I try to sprinkle that sort of
stuff
> > > > all over when I DM, and the fact
> > that
> > > > I'm in to LOTR right now is only
> > making
> > > > it worse. :)
> > > >
> > > > My problem is simply finding a
> > > > compromise in all of this - deep
> > down,
> > > > I want the players to have a
good
> > time,
> > > > but there's a channeled spirit
of
> > > > Professor Ludwig Von Duck in
there
> > too.
> > > > -------------------------------
> > > > OK - next topic. To be honest,
I'm
> > > > feeling a bit of pressure in
> > deciding
> > > > how this all turns out. In some
> > way or
> > > > another, the Riders are
guaranteed
> > to
> > > > have a heroic or at least
momentous
> > > > impact on the outcome of
the "world
> > > > chasing" plot.
> > > >
> > > > But it might not be what they
> > expect,
> > > > or the terms of success might
read
> > > > differently than Mylena set
them up
> > > > for. I have a bit of paranoia
that
> > > > anything I establish as DM will
> > vanish
> > > > within 3 months' time - shades
of
> > > > Nadan's father, or something. :)
> > > >
> > > > I'd really like to end up with
> > > > something where everyone is
> > satisfied.
> > > > The last time a character
became a
> > god
> > > > (Baish), he ended up a mortal
again
> > > > within a year or so of playing
time.
> > > > Or look at any one of my own
> > reversals
> > > > or character rebirths - Fenrys
> > would be
> > > > an example.
> > > >
> > > > So I'm not "stressing" over
this,
> > but
> > > > it's necessary to understand
where
> > > > everyone else is coming from.
Not
> > to
> > > > change those views or to
influence
> > them
> > > > in a certain way, but to make
sure
> > that
> > > > expectations aren't totally out
of
> > > > whack with that I'm doing.
> > > >
> > > > Man, can I ramble! Anyone else?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I certainly understand
what
> > you
> > > > are saying, and I think you
have a
> > good
> > > > > point. However, I have to
> > disagree
> > > > when you say too much
contrivance
> > will
> > > > kill
> > > > > the game. Sometimes,
contrivance
> > is
> > > > not only useful, but absolutely
> > > > necessary.
> > > > > I believe the problem may
be
> > that
> > > > you still wish to DM as you did
> > when we
> > > > > played more often. It's the
same
> > > > trap I fell into with the Tiamat
> > War.
> > > > We want
> > > > > to do things for the sake of
the
> > > > story. Unfortunately, that's
not
> > > > always an
> > > > > option. In my opinion, the
DM has
> > > > two jobs, and what shapes a DM
most
> > is
> > > > where
> > > > > they place their priorities.
The
> > > > first job of the DM is to
provide a
> > > > story; a
> > > > > world and a plot and other
> > characters
> > > > for the players to interact
with.
> > The
> > > > > second job is to provide the
> > players
> > > > with an enjoyable game. I have
> > always
> > > > > placed my emphasis on the
second
> > job,
> > > > while I believe that you
sometimes
> > focus
> > > > > on the first.
> > > > > Does that make me a
better DM?
> > > > Of course not. But it can be
very
> > > > telling
> > > > > in the way the game is run.
Many
> > > > times in the past I have zipped
> > through
> > > > things
> > > > > that I felt would not be
enjoyable
> > > > for the players to actually play
> > > > through.
> > > > > Did it seem a little
contrived?
> > Hell
> > > > yes. But, in my opinion, it was
> > better
> > > > to
> > > > > be contrived than it was to
have a
> > > > session that wasn't as much fun
as
> > it
> > > > could
> > > > > have been. I think the best
> > example
> > > > to illustrate the differences
> > between my
> > > > > style of DMing and Jim's
style of
> > > > DMing has to do with bringing
new
> > > > characters
> > > > > into a group.
> > > > > Let's say that we have a
new
> > > > player joining us, and he has a
> > > > character to
> > > > > bring into the campaign. I
will
> > > > introduce that character within
the
> > > > first ten
> > > > > minutes. It might be the
> > stupidest
> > > > introduction you have ever
seen, and
> > > > often
> > > > > it makes no sense at all.
> > > > > "The king told me to join
your
> > > > group."
> > > > > "Um, the king has been
dead
> > for
> > > > 20 years."
> > > > > "Yes.....well...the
> > > > king's....butler told me to
join the
> > > > group."
> > > > > It makes no sense, but it
gets
> > > > the character into the group
> > > > immediately, so
> > > > > the player can enjoy
themselves.
> > > > > Jim is much more likely to
> > detail
> > > > an intricate, well plotted, and
> > > > completely
> > > > > rational way for the
character to
> > be
> > > > introduced. His way will make
> > sense in
> > > > > terms of characterization, it
will
> > > > make sense in terms of plot,
and it
> > will
> > > > > stand the test of time.
However,
> > the
> > > > player may have to wait for 30-
60
> > > > minutes
> > > > > for everything to come
together so
> > > > they can play.
> > > > > Opinions or comments on
> > that? My
> > > > basic point is not that one or
the
> > other
> > > > > of us are a better DM, just
that
> > we
> > > > prioritize the jobs of the DM
two
> > > > different
> > > > > ways.
> > > > > Now, on to the second
part of
> > > > Jim's e-mail; do we expect to
> > succeed.
> > > > Of
> > > > > course we do. In every
mission
> > that
> > > > I have ever been in, in any
role-
> > playing
> > > > > game I have ever participated
in,
> > we
> > > > have always succeeded.
Sometimes
> > there
> > > > is
> > > > > death, sometimes there are
> > setbacks,
> > > > but in the end, success is
there.
> > Am I
> > > > > prepared for Magnus' death?
Darn
> > > > tootin'! If he should join the
> > choir
> > > > > invisible, so be it. I trust
Jim
> > > > completely as a DM, and I have
no
> > > > problem with
> > > > > whatever happens. Perhaps he
> > would
> > > > come back, not as the king of
the
> > gods,
> > > > but
> > > > > as one of the smaller ones.
> > Wouldn't
> > > > that make the pantheon even more
> > > > > interesting? Magnus would
> > constantly
> > > > be scheming to gain more
power! It
> > > > could
> > > > > be the best thing that
happens!
> > > > > What about if the Riders
don't
> > > > gain the power of deities?
What if
> > > > another
> > > > > group succeeds (say the Black
> > > > Legion)? Again, no problem.
Magnus
> > > > will stay on
> > > > > that world (with anyone who
> > wishes)
> > > > and try to wrest the power from
> > them.
> > > > That
> > > > > could be some interesting
> > adventures!
> > > > > This is getting very
long, so
> > let
> > > > me say this. Jim, I respect
you as
> > a
> > > > DM.
> > > > > I trust you as a DM. And I
enjoy
> > you
> > > > as a DM. I understand that your
> > style
> > > > is
> > > > > different from mine, which is
a
> > good
> > > > thing, especially for Matt and
> > Damon,
> > > > since
> > > > > it means that our adventures
have
> > a
> > > > drastically different feel,
giving
> > them
> > > > > greater chances at diverse
role-
> > > > playing. I am excited about
your
> > > > adventures.
> > > > > My only problem was the
amount of
> > > > individual role-playing we have
done
> > > > the past
> > > > > two weeks. You feel it was
> > necessary
> > > > for the plot. I feel a slightly
> > > > > contrived, but quicker
solution,
> > > > would have been preferable. No
harm
> > > > done.
> > > > > More comments?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim and Karen wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > OK, yesterday Damon and John
> > got me
> > > > back on course, and reduced my
> > > > > > unconscious efforts to
write the
> > > > Lord of the Rings trilogy to a
more
> > > > > > manageable movie of the
week.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After some thought and
planning
> > > > last night, it occurred to me
that I
> > > > may be
> > > > > > able to return the favor. :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I know one reason
why
> > the
> > > > interest level may have waned a
bit
> > the
> > > > > > other night. It could come
from
> > > > deep-seated expectations that
we as
> > a
> > > > group
> > > > > > share about what is/isn't
up to
> > > > chance. For example, I think
every
> > > > player
> > > > > > absolutely expected that the
> > group
> > > > would be gathered for the
meeting in
> > > > > > Sigil that we ended with.
To be
> > > > true, it had a 90% chance of
> > happening.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's why - Mylena really
does
> > > > have the only information
available
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > party that lets them pursue
the
> > > > quest. If they lose her at this
> > point,
> > > > it's
> > > > > > all over - someone else will
> > have
> > > > already won by the time they
figure
> > > > > > anything out. That's one
reason
> > > > why she was so surprised that
> > Magnus was
> > > > > > letting her take all the
risk -
> > > > just to give a sense of how I'm
> > running
> > > > this
> > > > > > as DM, she could have either
> > ended
> > > > up dead and lost on an outer
plane
> > or
> > > > get
> > > > > > so frustrated that she jump
ship
> > > > and hook up with another
faction.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess I'm hoping that we
can
> > have
> > > > a more direct discussion today
about
> > > > > > where this is all leading.
I
> > sense
> > > > a great deal of enthusiasm for
the
> > idea
> > > > > > of a campaign world with
some
> > or a
> > > > good number of our characters as
> > gods -
> > > > > > and that's good. It could
be
> > > > really cool. Then again, it
could
> > be
> > > > cheesy.
> > > > > > The whole reason that I'm
> > writing
> > > > this today is to get a handle on
> > what
> > > > > > everyone's expectations are.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example, on Wednesday -
I
> > > > couldn't as DM simply "let"
anyone
> > > > escape.
> > > > > > The current group(s) may
well
> > find
> > > > themselves in difficult
encounters
> > with
> > > > > > divine servants who will try
> > their
> > > > hardest to recapture the Riders.
> > Those
> > > > > > beings might succeed. And
that
> > > > would fly in the face of
players who
> > > > think
> > > > > > that victory is guaranteed,
or
> > that
> > > > I'm setting the stage for
having the
> > > > > > characters all free again.
I
> > think
> > > > if anything will kill our game
over
> > > > > > time, it will be too much
> > > > contrivance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe I'm being so wordy to
> > avoid
> > > > coming across in the wrong way,
but
> > this
> > > > > > seems to be a very important
> > thing
> > > > to discuss. For example -
John, how
> > > > > > would you feel if, in the
> > course of
> > > > a battle with the Black Legion,
> > Magnus
> > > > > > died - let's say, in one of
> > those
> > > > meteor swarms that he's so fond
> > of? :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another Rider could possibly
> > take
> > > > up the quest - and might even
make
> > all
> > > > of
> > > > > > the big decisions in the
end.
> > As
> > > > the only thing I will guarantee
is
> > that
> > > > > > some Riders WILL have an
> > > > opportunity to be gods, are you
> > ready
> > > > for a
> > > > > > situation where Magnus is
> > reborn as
> > > > a major power, but only over
elves
> > or
> > > > > > magic or something?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't want to pick on
John -
> > he
> > > > has the good/bad job of playing
the
> > > > party
> > > > > > leader. And maybe I'm too
> > anal - I
> > > > just think that we all need to
give
> > some
> > > > > > thought to whether we're
> > > > sacrificing excellent stories
for
> > the
> > > > sake of
> > > > > > requiring some long-term
> > specific
> > > > outcome.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
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