[dungeoncrawl] Re: Campaign Thoughts
- From: Johnathan Detrick <jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 09:05:30 -0400
I wanted to mention something that I found interesting as well.
Just talking about D&D the past few days, has rekindled my interest in
playing again. I'm getting quite psyched to play on Monday.
jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> I thought I remembered Nadan's papa
> coming back as a good person? It's
> been a while. That's a good example of
> why things work better now - people who
> are DMing collaborate more with people
> who are playing. Things that are
> totally unworkable seem a lot rarer.
>
> I brought up plot reversal mostly
> because I think it happens when new DMs
> inherit something that seems to put
> them in a straightjacket, or has no
> potential. I'd like the ultimate world
> that gets created to be a springboard
> for new ideas, not a hindrance. Thus
> the long emails this morning about
> expectations and the like.
>
> And I also see this as a great "style
> point" way to end the campaign. You
> don't get this sort of chance too
> often, and I really want to see how it
> all turns out. To be honest, I have no
> idea what Celane's ultimate fate is -
> she has both the Riders and the Black
> Legion coming after her - and all I can
> hope is that Dennis somehow survives
> it. :)
>
> >
> > Yeah, I was amazed with how you
> introduced Quincy as well. It was
> > very much the sort of introduction I
> would have done. Of course, you
> > still added something I wouldn't
> have. You built it up so Magnus
> > thought he was getting someone good,
> only to be disappointed when it was
> > Quincy. It was a great touch, and
> the sort of thing that you do that
> > never occurs to me.
> > I think your style is great, and
> you could create a very detailed
> > and intricate campaign, which is
> exactly what you did with the
> > Fellowship of Sundyr. Alas, time is
> no longer our friend. In many
> > ways, I again liken it to The X-
> Files. When they had a series, they
> > could do all kinds of stories, and
> really take their time. Hey, they
> > were doing 22 hours or so a year, and
> they filled it with some gems
> > (like the Bermuda Triangle episode).
> Now that they are doing movies
> > (say 2 hours every other year), they
> won't be able to do that. Things
> > will have to move faster, and while
> every movie should be excellent, and
> > better than any single episode of the
> series, the little gems will be no
> > more. We just have to make the best
> of it.
> > As for the end of this plot, my
> expectations are very simple. I
> > expect the Riders to become deities
> of this world. Failing that, I
> > expect them to be in a situation
> where they can change what occurred.
> > My example about the Black Legion
> from the previous e-mail is a perfect
> > example of what I mean by being able
> to change what happened. What I
> > would hate to see is the rug pulled
> out from under them. I see this as
> > the perfect chance to end the longest
> campaign we have ever had, as well
> > as allow our characters to retire
> with the most style points available.
> > Note that I don't expect Magnus to
> survive, or any one character to
> > survive. But yes, I do think the
> Riders will win.
> > As for plots being reversed,
> we've been over this numerous times.
> > All of us do it to each other. You
> reverse my plots, I reverse yours,
> > and all of us reversed Damon's when
> the giant robot invaded Elven Flow
> > (and for that matter, we won't even
> discuss when Keith had the Riders
> > fight Transformers). We've all been
> there, and we all know that it can
> > be frustrating. It's one of the main
> reasons that we have not changed
> > the Chosen back. Braun is still a
> Figurine of Wondrous Power, and Wolfe
> > still doesn't have any bloody items
> (which means that I now have to give
> > him to Matt to play). We've left
> what happened stand, and I think we do
> > that more often that we used to.
> > By the way, we never reversed
> what happened with Nadan's father. I
> > wasn't happy about it at the time,
> but it still stands. Nadan just
> > doesn't talk about his father a lot,
> and when he does, he tends to speak
> > of him as he always did. Nadan feels
> that he had already built his
> > father up into this larger than life
> figure, and that's who he chooses
> > to remember. But his father is still
> an evil villain.
> >
> > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >
> > > I think you covered it pretty well,
> and
> > > reassured me on the important stuff.
> > >
> > > You're right on character
> introduction -
> > > it's sort of funny, but when you
> posed
> > > that scenario, my first thought
> > > was, "Ugh. That's a lot of work! I
> > > always have to give those situations
> > > such thought, and it takes forever."
> > >
> > > Like the recent introduction of
> > > Quincy. In the back of my mind, a
> > > little voice is still saying, "You
> > > should have developed a backstory
> for
> > > John of where Quincy has been on the
> > > planes. It would help him to
> > > understand what happened since the
> > > character was seen last." Or, "That
> > > was sort of a contrived way to bring
> > > him in - just coming through a
> portal
> > > like that. There should have been a
> > > better explanation, or it doesn't
> quite
> > > hold up for this reason" - etc.
> > >
> > > If I had a bit more talent, a lot
> more
> > > patience, and even more time, I
> could
> > > easily write something as lengthy as
> > > war and peace. This might sound
> odd or
> > > sick, but I LIKE the fact that the
> > > Tolkien books are long on
> explanation.
> > > It makes it more real for me.
> > >
> > > Like the adventures we're currently
> > > doing - personally, I'm far more
> > > interested in things like the
> history
> > > of the Green Mill Inn or its place
> in
> > > the local economy than in how well
> it
> > > suits the characters as a temporary
> > > base. That's why Dennis, on first
> > > visiting, said, "The Green Mill
> Inn! I
> > > have long heard of this place from
> > > songs and legends, but never
> realized
> > > that I would actually see it."
> > >
> > > It could be, and I'm cool with it if
> > > such is the case, that none of the
> > > players that night even caught the
> > > comment, let alone used it to build
> an
> > > idea that the inn they're staying
> in is
> > > legendary somewhere.
> > >
> > > I try to sprinkle that sort of stuff
> > > all over when I DM, and the fact
> that
> > > I'm in to LOTR right now is only
> making
> > > it worse. :)
> > >
> > > My problem is simply finding a
> > > compromise in all of this - deep
> down,
> > > I want the players to have a good
> time,
> > > but there's a channeled spirit of
> > > Professor Ludwig Von Duck in there
> too.
> > > -------------------------------
> > > OK - next topic. To be honest, I'm
> > > feeling a bit of pressure in
> deciding
> > > how this all turns out. In some
> way or
> > > another, the Riders are guaranteed
> to
> > > have a heroic or at least momentous
> > > impact on the outcome of the "world
> > > chasing" plot.
> > >
> > > But it might not be what they
> expect,
> > > or the terms of success might read
> > > differently than Mylena set them up
> > > for. I have a bit of paranoia that
> > > anything I establish as DM will
> vanish
> > > within 3 months' time - shades of
> > > Nadan's father, or something. :)
> > >
> > > I'd really like to end up with
> > > something where everyone is
> satisfied.
> > > The last time a character became a
> god
> > > (Baish), he ended up a mortal again
> > > within a year or so of playing time.
> > > Or look at any one of my own
> reversals
> > > or character rebirths - Fenrys
> would be
> > > an example.
> > >
> > > So I'm not "stressing" over this,
> but
> > > it's necessary to understand where
> > > everyone else is coming from. Not
> to
> > > change those views or to influence
> them
> > > in a certain way, but to make sure
> that
> > > expectations aren't totally out of
> > > whack with that I'm doing.
> > >
> > > Man, can I ramble! Anyone else?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I certainly understand what
> you
> > > are saying, and I think you have a
> good
> > > > point. However, I have to
> disagree
> > > when you say too much contrivance
> will
> > > kill
> > > > the game. Sometimes, contrivance
> is
> > > not only useful, but absolutely
> > > necessary.
> > > > I believe the problem may be
> that
> > > you still wish to DM as you did
> when we
> > > > played more often. It's the same
> > > trap I fell into with the Tiamat
> War.
> > > We want
> > > > to do things for the sake of the
> > > story. Unfortunately, that's not
> > > always an
> > > > option. In my opinion, the DM has
> > > two jobs, and what shapes a DM most
> is
> > > where
> > > > they place their priorities. The
> > > first job of the DM is to provide a
> > > story; a
> > > > world and a plot and other
> characters
> > > for the players to interact with.
> The
> > > > second job is to provide the
> players
> > > with an enjoyable game. I have
> always
> > > > placed my emphasis on the second
> job,
> > > while I believe that you sometimes
> focus
> > > > on the first.
> > > > Does that make me a better DM?
> > > Of course not. But it can be very
> > > telling
> > > > in the way the game is run. Many
> > > times in the past I have zipped
> through
> > > things
> > > > that I felt would not be enjoyable
> > > for the players to actually play
> > > through.
> > > > Did it seem a little contrived?
> Hell
> > > yes. But, in my opinion, it was
> better
> > > to
> > > > be contrived than it was to have a
> > > session that wasn't as much fun as
> it
> > > could
> > > > have been. I think the best
> example
> > > to illustrate the differences
> between my
> > > > style of DMing and Jim's style of
> > > DMing has to do with bringing new
> > > characters
> > > > into a group.
> > > > Let's say that we have a new
> > > player joining us, and he has a
> > > character to
> > > > bring into the campaign. I will
> > > introduce that character within the
> > > first ten
> > > > minutes. It might be the
> stupidest
> > > introduction you have ever seen, and
> > > often
> > > > it makes no sense at all.
> > > > "The king told me to join your
> > > group."
> > > > "Um, the king has been dead
> for
> > > 20 years."
> > > > "Yes.....well...the
> > > king's....butler told me to join the
> > > group."
> > > > It makes no sense, but it gets
> > > the character into the group
> > > immediately, so
> > > > the player can enjoy themselves.
> > > > Jim is much more likely to
> detail
> > > an intricate, well plotted, and
> > > completely
> > > > rational way for the character to
> be
> > > introduced. His way will make
> sense in
> > > > terms of characterization, it will
> > > make sense in terms of plot, and it
> will
> > > > stand the test of time. However,
> the
> > > player may have to wait for 30-60
> > > minutes
> > > > for everything to come together so
> > > they can play.
> > > > Opinions or comments on
> that? My
> > > basic point is not that one or the
> other
> > > > of us are a better DM, just that
> we
> > > prioritize the jobs of the DM two
> > > different
> > > > ways.
> > > > Now, on to the second part of
> > > Jim's e-mail; do we expect to
> succeed.
> > > Of
> > > > course we do. In every mission
> that
> > > I have ever been in, in any role-
> playing
> > > > game I have ever participated in,
> we
> > > have always succeeded. Sometimes
> there
> > > is
> > > > death, sometimes there are
> setbacks,
> > > but in the end, success is there.
> Am I
> > > > prepared for Magnus' death? Darn
> > > tootin'! If he should join the
> choir
> > > > invisible, so be it. I trust Jim
> > > completely as a DM, and I have no
> > > problem with
> > > > whatever happens. Perhaps he
> would
> > > come back, not as the king of the
> gods,
> > > but
> > > > as one of the smaller ones.
> Wouldn't
> > > that make the pantheon even more
> > > > interesting? Magnus would
> constantly
> > > be scheming to gain more power! It
> > > could
> > > > be the best thing that happens!
> > > > What about if the Riders don't
> > > gain the power of deities? What if
> > > another
> > > > group succeeds (say the Black
> > > Legion)? Again, no problem. Magnus
> > > will stay on
> > > > that world (with anyone who
> wishes)
> > > and try to wrest the power from
> them.
> > > That
> > > > could be some interesting
> adventures!
> > > > This is getting very long, so
> let
> > > me say this. Jim, I respect you as
> a
> > > DM.
> > > > I trust you as a DM. And I enjoy
> you
> > > as a DM. I understand that your
> style
> > > is
> > > > different from mine, which is a
> good
> > > thing, especially for Matt and
> Damon,
> > > since
> > > > it means that our adventures have
> a
> > > drastically different feel, giving
> them
> > > > greater chances at diverse role-
> > > playing. I am excited about your
> > > adventures.
> > > > My only problem was the amount of
> > > individual role-playing we have done
> > > the past
> > > > two weeks. You feel it was
> necessary
> > > for the plot. I feel a slightly
> > > > contrived, but quicker solution,
> > > would have been preferable. No harm
> > > done.
> > > > More comments?
> > > >
> > > > Jim and Karen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > OK, yesterday Damon and John
> got me
> > > back on course, and reduced my
> > > > > unconscious efforts to write the
> > > Lord of the Rings trilogy to a more
> > > > > manageable movie of the week.
> > > > >
> > > > > After some thought and planning
> > > last night, it occurred to me that I
> > > may be
> > > > > able to return the favor. :)
> > > > >
> > > > > I think I know one reason why
> the
> > > interest level may have waned a bit
> the
> > > > > other night. It could come from
> > > deep-seated expectations that we as
> a
> > > group
> > > > > share about what is/isn't up to
> > > chance. For example, I think every
> > > player
> > > > > absolutely expected that the
> group
> > > would be gathered for the meeting in
> > > > > Sigil that we ended with. To be
> > > true, it had a 90% chance of
> happening.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's why - Mylena really does
> > > have the only information available
> to
> > > the
> > > > > party that lets them pursue the
> > > quest. If they lose her at this
> point,
> > > it's
> > > > > all over - someone else will
> have
> > > already won by the time they figure
> > > > > anything out. That's one reason
> > > why she was so surprised that
> Magnus was
> > > > > letting her take all the risk -
> > > just to give a sense of how I'm
> running
> > > this
> > > > > as DM, she could have either
> ended
> > > up dead and lost on an outer plane
> or
> > > get
> > > > > so frustrated that she jump ship
> > > and hook up with another faction.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess I'm hoping that we can
> have
> > > a more direct discussion today about
> > > > > where this is all leading. I
> sense
> > > a great deal of enthusiasm for the
> idea
> > > > > of a campaign world with some
> or a
> > > good number of our characters as
> gods -
> > > > > and that's good. It could be
> > > really cool. Then again, it could
> be
> > > cheesy.
> > > > > The whole reason that I'm
> writing
> > > this today is to get a handle on
> what
> > > > > everyone's expectations are.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, on Wednesday - I
> > > couldn't as DM simply "let" anyone
> > > escape.
> > > > > The current group(s) may well
> find
> > > themselves in difficult encounters
> with
> > > > > divine servants who will try
> their
> > > hardest to recapture the Riders.
> Those
> > > > > beings might succeed. And that
> > > would fly in the face of players who
> > > think
> > > > > that victory is guaranteed, or
> that
> > > I'm setting the stage for having the
> > > > > characters all free again. I
> think
> > > if anything will kill our game over
> > > > > time, it will be too much
> > > contrivance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe I'm being so wordy to
> avoid
> > > coming across in the wrong way, but
> this
> > > > > seems to be a very important
> thing
> > > to discuss. For example - John, how
> > > > > would you feel if, in the
> course of
> > > a battle with the Black Legion,
> Magnus
> > > > > died - let's say, in one of
> those
> > > meteor swarms that he's so fond
> of? :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Another Rider could possibly
> take
> > > up the quest - and might even make
> all
> > > of
> > > > > the big decisions in the end.
> As
> > > the only thing I will guarantee is
> that
> > > > > some Riders WILL have an
> > > opportunity to be gods, are you
> ready
> > > for a
> > > > > situation where Magnus is
> reborn as
> > > a major power, but only over elves
> or
> > > > > magic or something?
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't want to pick on John -
> he
> > > has the good/bad job of playing the
> > > party
> > > > > leader. And maybe I'm too
> anal - I
> > > just think that we all need to give
> some
> > > > > thought to whether we're
> > > sacrificing excellent stories for
> the
> > > sake of
> > > > > requiring some long-term
> specific
> > > outcome.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
Other related posts:
