Beautifully said, even if English is your 3rd language or so:) I love you my
dear sister!
Enviado desde el Ecuador
Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice
US Court Certified Spanish Interpreter and certified medical interpreter
interprete jurídica federal e interprete certificada medica
720-838-9509
Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Aug 2, 2012, at 8:16 PM, Anutoshf Foo <anutoshf@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear Friends
Appreciating so much how we can be naked with each other here in this
forum. Thank you.
Please allow me to share one of my favorite quotes from Rumi:-
Beyond all the concepts of wrong doing and right doing, there is a field, I
will meet you there.
Come, come again, whoever you are, come!
Heathen, Ours is the portal of hope, come as you are.....By Rumi
Vinay, perhaps you wrote for me?!
Last December, a former lover who is 62 fell in love with a 20 year old and
she with him. As of today, they appear content and as far as i can tell
are not hurting anyone. Believe me i had all my judgements too but when i
watch them and how they interact with each other, the age thing did seem to
be an issue. As if they have this ageless love happening. It is actually
very sweet and boy! did i have to stretch and s t r e t c h i did! It was a
constellation for me which lasted for 2 weeks! Even broke a hand which is
my body saying to me that it was too much to handle.
The exchange in giving and receiving between them appears to be in good
harmony as far as i can tell plus she attended all my constellation
workshops while i was there which she said helped tremendously with issues
with her own parents :-))
Now my former darling and i have upgraded to sister and brother :-)) And i
keep reminding young lover she has my blessings. She is one of these young
older Souls. They are getting what they need from each other and their
respective systems and i celebrate that with them fully.
He is white and she a local Island girl in Asia. His over 25 years live-in
caretakers were so upset, they walked out because they refused to serve a
younger girl. The caretakers were a husband and wife team. This couple is
still looking for work and the lovers are still blissfully together.
Caretakers and former boss's homes are across each other. Talk about s t r
e t c h i n g and we all did.
I am not sure where i am going with this except to say i have a real
personal experience with an older man with a younger woman. She is
essentially two generations apart with the "dirty old man" which we have
all 3 joked about. Initially it may be just for sexual gains but it has
deepened i am sure. They are probably entangled or not who is to say but
the bigger picture is they seem to be good this far.
So i conclude for myself that to be human is one of the greatest art and to
be allowed to do this work, may i be guided in all the best ways not to act
that i know when i do not. But instead to acknowledge what is and pray pray
pray for what is needed for the highest good for all.
Regretfully, i am not a therapist. I work with birth and death and also do
body work. I am aware that life is short between birth and death and i
consider us so blessed to be allowed to be with seekers who come to us to
befriend their weaknesses and their strength and that they bring all their
Ancestors with them too to share this humaness with us. It is a very deep
privilege for me and forever humbling.
English is my second language and i still struggle with it and that is why
i do not have a website yet:-((
Vinay, thank you for mirroring my judgements around judgements and for now
a forest walk is needed.
Hope my last sentence about mirroring is correct here! It is time for me to
learn sign language or else better shut up. Gulp!
blessings to all of you dear friends, love
Anutosh
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Steve Vinay Gunther
<spirited@xxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
**
Hey all
I really appreciate hearing all the responses and views. Its given me a
lot more to think about.
One problem I have is with a dynamic thats being expressed -
understandably in a constellation group - regarding judgement vs
acknowledgement.
The great strength of the constellation work is its breadth - looking at
the bigger picture, the cultural, family, biological forces organising the
behaviour of a family or individual. We can see the profound
interconnectedness, and understand things which appear to be black and
white (right and wrong) from a much more complex and systemic point of view.
That view, taken more broadly, takes us into the spiritual very easily,
the domain where things just simply 'are', and everyone and everything is
profoundly connected.
Thats a beautiful perspective, and unarguably true at the most basic level.
And, theres a classic error which occurs in the thinking related to just
about any kind of spiritual philosophy, which is to apply systemic thinking
too absolutely.
In the relative world, there is up and down, ethical and unethical, pain
and pleasure. It all depends which way you look at it, true, but if we dont
also reference that point of view, we get a kind of moral relativism which
can be just as dangerous as ignoring the systemic facts of correspondence
and complexity.
I am not an advocate for reductionism.
And, I think that some of the comments about judgement are making this
kind of error I am speaking of.
The human mind depends on judgement to orient in the world. We can indeed
move to a more synthetic way of looking at things, but its only at moments
(as a gift) that our judgement gets suspended. Theres nothing fundamentally
wrong with maps of any sort, as long as you dont mistake them for reality.
So I disagree with some of the comments about moving beyond judgement.
Its true, judgement generally results in condemnation, shaming, and all
the multiple things which dont work in relationship. But judgement can also
be used benevolently. I make many judgements, moment by moment, in
facilitating a constellation; although I am flexible and responsive to what
occurs, those judgement are useful guides. They are based on my
understanding of systemic principles, my own experience, what the reps are
saying...etc. But they are indeed judgements.
Perhaps people are talking more specifically about negative judgements,
which are used to put others in the bad guy category. Its true, systemics
helps us step away from that kind of linear blame.
And, I think if we are too dogmatic about a systemic view, we can move
away from individual responsiblity and choice. Despite systemic influences,
we are in the end, choosing beings - viz Frankl. Surely constellation work
is not proposing that theres not really free will!
So I think its dangerous to simply sweep away Allen's actions with terms
such as 'love', to excuse it somehow because Soon-Yi has unknown loyalty
binds, or to compare it with a relationship between two people 10 years
apart.
Sure, if Woody or Soon-yi, or Mia, came to do a constellation, I would put
on my systemic hat, to see what is revealed, for the purpose of
transformation.
But none of them seem to have evidenced that interest. And no, I am not
suggesting we try to constellate them to find out whats going on.
I am more interested in the interface between systemic understanding and
the knowledge that - plain and simple - a man (who is a public figure) 35
years senior to a 15 year old, who he knew as an adoptee since the start of
her pubescence is a relationship which is questionable in terms of the
power dynamics, and the resemblance to what we socially define as abuse. I
would not imagine that anyone on this list would disagree with laws that
forbid sexual abuse of all forms. Thats a strong and essential social
judgement, which sets a social standard.
We can be semantic and say cause she was 15 at the time its not really
abuse. Ok, its not abuse, but its not just a kind of systemically neutral
situation either. At times like this, cant non-judgement be a cop out from
making it clear socially what is ok? I am asking these questions, not
didactically, but in a searching/challenging kind of a way.
On an oblique but related note - the recent banning of several olympic
atheletes for racist tweets. These are public figures, who have power and
influence by virtue of their position. And clear judgements are made, and
clear actions taken, to signal what is not ok.
So why would we apply this to Woody's actions, as a very public filmaker,
about matters of relationship, family and sexuality?
I think understanding has a place. And I think clear boundaries have a
place. Ah, but where and how do the two meet, thats my question to each of
you..
Vinay
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