[brailleblaster] Re: Why Java
- From: Alex Jurgensen <asquared21@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 22:25:47 -0700
Hi,
Thanks. I will.
Regards,
Alex,
On 2010-11-04, at 10:13 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
> That's an extremely long time in the Eclipse world.
>
> I would definitely update if I were you.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Jurgensen
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 1:03 AM
> To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Why Java
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I believe that I am using one of the latest versions of Eclipse as I got it
> in June.
>
> Regards,
> Alex,
>
>
> On 2010-11-04, at 9:35 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>
>
> Have you tried the latest Eclipse on the Mac?
>
> Old versions of eclipse used a version of SWT that mapped to Carbon
> instead of coco; thus, the latest version of eclipse is
> much
> better with respect to accessibility simply because of the later
> eclipse bindings.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Jurgensen
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 12:33 AM
> To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Why Java
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> About the Mac support, I have found that Eclipse, which is itself
> written in SWT is kind of sketchy in its support of
> VoiceOver, the
> Mac screen reader and has a tendancy to lock up when it is used with
> VoiceOver, even on a machine with relatively high
> specifications.
>
> I also disagree with embeded devices for embossing.
>
> Also, since the future of application development and deployment may be
> the Apple and Microsoft App Stores, then we should
> look at
> what kinds of apps are not being allowed in.
>
> I would also be interested in making on an online version of Braille
> Blaster as a portable version. What do you all think
> about
> that?
>
> Regards,
> Alex,
>
>
> On 2010-11-04, at 9:01 PM, John Gardner wrote:
>
>
> Hello Alex, well you have certainly stirred up a lot of questions and
> comments. That's good, and I have had private
> conversations with several listers to develop a consensus on whether we
> should seriously consider changing course as you
> suggest.
> The consensus is "no".
> Quick summary is that isn't necessarily true that C will be faster,
> since it really depends on how well it is
> optimized. Java has many automatic optimizations and can often run
> lots faster than C. It strikes many people that it
> really
> doesn't make sense to time-optimize this program, because it really
> runs on (very slow) human time anyhow. Java is
> considerably
> faster to write and debug code, so the price for using C would be
> longer development time. Strike 1.
> BrailleBlaster has always been intended to be a desktop application.
> To be useful, it needs to have drivers for
> embossers, and these are available for Windows, some for Macs, and some
> for Linux. It is not very likely that any will be
> written
> for an iPhone, iPad, or any other embedded device, so it makes no sense
> to write a Braille translator for those devices
> either.
> Strike 2.
> You say that Microsoft and Apple no longer support Java. To my
> knowledge, Microsoft has never supported Java per
> se, but Java has always worked on Windows. Apple's Java support has
> been, well peculiar at best, so many Java lovers seem
> pretty
> happy that Apple has abandoned that support. There are plenty of Java
> run-time aps that work on the Mac, so there seems to
> be no
> problem using Java. Just have to install a JRT whether it's Windows or
> Mac. Strike 3.
> Thanks for making us examine our assumptions however. I appreciate
> your thoughts. One should always be looking for
> something better. C is better for lots of things, but as far as
> several of us can tell, not for BrailleBlaster.
> John Gardner
> From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Alex Jurgensen
> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 7:46 PM
> To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Why Java
> Hi John,
> C programs run nativvely on all major OS's.
> WX-Widgets is like SWT for C and for sure works on the Mac with the
> Mac's screen reader.
> The compilers are not included on the Mac and as far as I know on
> Windows, but those need to be run only once to compile the
> code.
> What you walk away with by using C is faster exicution, and more memory
> efficient code, which is important to screen reader
> users running on low specification machines.
> Just my $0.02 cents worth.
> Regards,
> Alex,
> On 2010-11-04, at 5:57 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>
>
> BrailleBlaster is intended as a desktop application. There is no reason
> why it couldn't be used on a tablet. It would not be suitable for small
> devices, such as phones, because these could not accommmodate the GUI
> which is part of its design and a large part of its appeal. How would
> you fit usable braille and print windows on a small screen?
>
> The core libraries of BrailleBlaster are already in C. liblouis and
> liblouisutdml will be the braille engine of BrailleBlaster and they can
> be used without it via the file2brl command-line interface. They are
> the
> engine; BrailleBlaster is the rest of the car.
>
> Java was picked because of SWT, which has native C libraries that
> support the UI requirements of different platforms. wxwidgets is
> problematical. I have heard that it really works only for Windows. Java
> provides wuicker software development and indeed a great number of
> libraries that do things like display MathML.
> Microsoft doesn['t provide C at the installation of its operating
> systems. With Apple, you have to install the Developer tools to get C.
> I
> think both decided that maintaining their own Java runtimes just wasn't
> worth it, because there are so many third-party JREs already available.
>
> I may be wrong on some of this, but I'm hoping we will see some
> messages
> from More Java experts and from other decision-makers.
>
> Yuemei said she is experienced mostly in C and Visual Basic. She did
> mention Swing, but not that she had used it a lot. I think straight SWT
> is the way to go.
>
> John
>
> On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 05:45:02PM -0500, qubit wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps because there are java libraries available that are tempting to
> use as a base? As for Apple and Microsoft, the java
> runtime is not being supported by them any longer, but third parties
> may still develop such support to be distributed with
> java
> programs.
>
> Any other things I have missed?
>
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Alex Jurgensen
>
> To: Brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 2:25 PM
>
> Subject: [brailleblaster] Why Java
>
> Hi All,
>
> I mention this now, at the relative beginning of the project, so as to
> avoid unnecessary work.
>
> Why are we using Java and not writing most of the code in C, with a
> true, native UI on top, such as WX-Widgets for
> C. Because the code would not need to be exicuted in a virtual machine,
> we would avoid many of the slowdowns associated with
> Java.
>
> We must also think about embeded devices, where the overhead of Java is
> either too much for hte battery to
> tolleratte acceptably or there is no Java Virtual Machine available.
>
> Furthermore, both Microsoft and Apple have dropped support for Java
> within their Operating Systems, it doesn't seem
> to make sense to continue coding in Java because we may one day soon
> need to rewrite all of our code to aadapt to a whole
> new class
> of machines that don't have Java Available.
>
> I feel that if we write the core of our code into C libraries, we
> should be able to bring about new UI's, such as a
> Cocoatouch UI for IOS devices, OR an QT UI for Nokea and Intel's new
> project.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alex,
>
> Alex Jurgensen,
>
> VoiceOver Trainer,
>
> ASquared21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Visit us on the web at: www.vipbc.org
>
>
> --
> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
> Madison, Wisconsin USA
> Developing software for people with disabilities
>
>
>
> Alex Jurgensen,
> VoiceOver Trainer,
> ASquared21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Visit us on the web at: www.vipbc.org <http://www.vipbc.org/>
>
>
> Alex Jurgensen,
> VoiceOver Trainer,
> ASquared21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Visit us on the web at: www.vipbc.org <http://www.vipbc.org/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Alex Jurgensen,
> VoiceOver Trainer,
> ASquared21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Visit us on the web at: www.vipbc.org <http://www.vipbc.org/>
>
>
>
Alex Jurgensen,
VoiceOver Trainer,
ASquared21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Visit us on the web at: www.vipbc.org
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