[brailleblaster] Re: Some Thoughts
- From: Alex Jurgensen <asquared21@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 16:33:52 -0800
Hi,
If you wanted to use Python, there is WX-Python, essentially SWT for Python.
I am not suggesting that we use python, this is just an observation.
Regards,
Alex,
Alex Jurgensen,
VoiceOver Trainer,
Visit me on the web at: http://www.vipbc.org/
On 2011-02-02, at 3:56 PM, Michael Whapples wrote:
> My short answer is, "get over your problems with Java, it can interface with
> native system libraries if you want to do that". So others would be equally
> as able to enhance BrailleBlaster if it is written in Java or any other
> language, probably what matters more for customisation is the quality of the
> design. The arguments of what happens if Oracle were to ditch Java and so
> JRE's were hard to come by (an unlikely case I think, Oracle has a number of
> there software packages in Java and others could continue development of the
> JDK now Java is opensource in the form of the OpenJDK), well that applies as
> much to other programming languages, what if Apple feel that Python isn't
> worth supporting (they are behind the latest Python version by a bit), Ruby
> needs an interpreter, ocaml needs a compiler, what if Apple decided they
> could do better than objective-c as their main development language, etc.
> Java has a number of large companies behind it, including Apple (they are
> contributing to the Mac port of OpenJDK), so where's the evidence of death of
> Java?
>
> I will just add, actually python got some consideration near the beginning. I
> certainly like python, its great for quickly getting things done. The problem
> in python is the GUI support, it probably would have required separate GUI
> modules for each platform and this very well could have eaten back the
> advantages of python being really easy to work in.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On 02/02/11 23:45, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> What about C++, C, Rubie, or any of the other "First Class" languages.
>>
>> If we as a project built the generic UI and then left the door open to third
>> parties to create their own UI's, who knows, we may end up with hands-free
>> Braille translation software or a version of BB that only embosses for
>> certain people, using facial recognition.
>>
>> I know these are far fetched ideas, but there is a lot of potential to go
>> above and beyond the specification.
>>
>> For instance, what if a third-party made a mobile version of BB that could
>> sync with a modified desktop version for embossing?
>>
>> This is what we gain by making an engine that is robust and is written in
>> something that is easy to integrate with other programming languages through
>> wrappers or natively.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alex,
>>
>>
>> On 2011-02-02, at 3:30 PM, qubit wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Alex --
>>> you want to component out a braille translation engine separate from the
>>> UI -- I believe that is already the case as braille translation and
>>> back-translation is being handled almost completely by JohnB's C libraries.
>>> Your arguments are compelling (you almost had me convinced about objective
>>> C), but I think that it is not used nearly as widely as java, and its future
>>> depends on Apple's projections to take over the world as we know it *smile*
>>> I also think that separating out a language-independent way of expressing
>>> the UI is awkward and prone to bias.
>>> I think that some work could be done to produce a layer of code between the
>>> liblouis* libraries and the UI to flesh out whatever is put in the
>>> requirements, but I'm still not convinced that ditching java is the best
>>> approach.
>>> Just my $0.02.
>>> --le
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alex Jurgensen"<asquared21@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To:<brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 4:42 PM
>>> Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Some Thoughts
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> To answer your questions, I don't dislike Java in any way.
>>>
>>> I am just looking into the future. With Microsoft roomered to launch an apps
>>> store with Windows 8, and Apple having successfully launched two so far, I
>>> think that we must look at the direction the market is heading and not just
>>> at what would work right now.
>>>
>>> I started my development in Java and continue to have plans for some
>>> projects in Java, but I think that Java has its place, as does any
>>> programming language.
>>>
>>> As to Macs representing a very small number of users, I would have to agree
>>> over all, but disagree that we can afford to ignore the platform.
>>>
>>> It is gaining in popularity among blind users.
>>>
>>> Let's say that tomorrow all desktops disappeared. What would run BB, a
>>> handful of tablets?
>>>
>>> As computers evolve, we can't live in the desktop paridyme. We must flow
>>> with the market.
>>>
>>> My suggestion of using a natively compiled language would allow us to secure
>>> against changes in the UI that we can't predict today.
>>>
>>> I suggest that we component out BB into a Braille translation engine with a
>>> UI as a separate component.
>>>
>>> Then, if Viewplus drops support for a platform, it would be straight forward
>>> for another group to pick it up.
>>>
>>> I know the same can be said for writing the logic in Java, but I think that
>>> Java is a weakness in the structure of BB.
>>>
>>> There are two main reasons for this.
>>>
>>> Embedded distros may not support Linux and although they form a very small
>>> percent of the market today, may form a bigger percentage tomorrow.
>>>
>>> Secondly, it relies on a JVM, which not only can use more resources, but,
>>> even if the issue of efficiency could be worked around, would rely on JRE's
>>> being maintained.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alex,
>>>
>>> Alex Jurgensen,
>>> VoiceOver Trainer,
>>>
>>> Visit us on the web at: http://www.vipbc.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2011-02-02, at 1:56 PM, Michael Whapples wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am going to be direct, you keep bringing it up and honesty may be the
>>>> only way to get to the bottom of it.
>>>>
>>>> I am getting the feeling your issue is not really with SWT but rather with
>>>> Java. What is it about Java you don't like?
>>>>
>>>> As an example to why I draw the conclusion above, you say use
>>>> C/C++/objective-c for logic code but possibly use SWT for the UI. The
>>>> rationale you give for this is to have the possibility of being able to
>>>> develop a native GUI for the Mac. Well having the logic code in Java also
>>>> would allow for that as I have pointed out in the past. Java can access
>>>> native code and so use the platform's native GUI libraries directly. The
>>>> example I have given before is cyberduck http://www.cyberduck.ch, which in
>>>> fact Apple have put in their list of applications accessible with
>>>> voiceover http://www.apple.com/accessibility/voiceover/applications.html,
>>>> look under utilities.
>>>>
>>>> I won't say my views on the app store again, other than to mention, Macs
>>>> only represent a small number of users, as Linux probably does, and so
>>>> technologies of one platform, particularly optional ones which the app
>>>> store seems to be, should not drive the direction of the project.
>>>>
>>>> I guess the last say on all this could and probably does fall back to
>>>> ViewPlus, who are the ones wanting this project. How important is the Mac
>>>> to ViewPlus? What is the minimum acceptable standard of support for the
>>>> Mac? Oh, and I am not getting at the Macs here,the same questions should
>>>> be asked for the other platforms.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>> On 02/02/11 17:49, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> If we use the web approach, we can style the applcations to look like
>>>>> native Mac apps.
>>>>>
>>>>> These are the headaches that just kill me about cross-platform stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we only wrote hte main logic in something like C, Objective-C or C++
>>>>> and then did our UI's in SWT, that would at least give us the possibility
>>>>> to write an alternative UI down the road for the Mac.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2011-02-02, at 9:41 AM, Chris von See wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Highly unlikely - rule 2.24
>>>>>> ofhttp://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/files/mac-app-review.pdf seems
>>>>>> pretty clear:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.24 Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies
>>>>>> (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You *may* be able to get around the rules regarding deprecated
>>>>>> technologies by bundling a JRE (it would almost certainly need to be
>>>>>> SoyLatte since you can't include anything with a third-party installer
>>>>>> such as an Oracle JRE for Mac). You almost certainly will not be able
>>>>>> to get around the requirement that the UI adhere to the Mac Human
>>>>>> Interface Guidelines - Java apps that don't use Apple's enhanced JRE
>>>>>> look nothing like native Mac apps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 2, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I realize that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, I think that including a JDK might solve this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2011-02-02, at 9:28 AM, Chris von See wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Java applications cannot be included in the Mac App Store. Java is
>>>>>>>> now considered to be an "optional" technology on the Mac, according to
>>>>>>>> Apple.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 2011, at 9:21 AM, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was refering more to Chris' message about using STW's browser
>>>>>>>>> control as a UI. That would get us half way to having a web app,
>>>>>>>>> would it not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now, that depends on how we end up doing the UI.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> About the auto updater, I am working on it because this is where I
>>>>>>>>> feel the most confident, creating a boot loader.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is my question.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How far along are we in the 2 year development cycle? The website
>>>>>>>>> does not list a date that the project was started on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have also been investigating the rules for submitting the
>>>>>>>>> application through Apple's Mac App Store.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know it is a little early for this, but I have read about
>>>>>>>>> developers who wrote entire applications that got rejected because of
>>>>>>>>> something that was too difficult to change at the time of submission.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2011-02-02, at 9:13 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry about the need to modify your application bundle, but
>>>>>>>>>> BrailleBlaster has always been written as one word.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think you are getting ahead of us. It is too early to include
>>>>>>>>>> auto-updatre, and a web application is a whold divverent project. We
>>>>>>>>>> have to stick to what we are doing. After BrailleBlaster is working
>>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>> desktop application we can consider a Web application.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 08:52:17AM -0800, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose that the Mac issues should be resolved in any case. This
>>>>>>>>>>> would help the Mac community as a whole.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've built my boot loader now, but I can't test it yet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you get a chance to look at my mock up yet?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Alex Jurgensen,
>>>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver Trainer,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Visit me on the web at:http://www.vipbc.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-02-02, at 12:19 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've read through all these messages, and I'm convinced we should
>>>>>>>>>>>> stick
>>>>>>>>>>>> with SWT. By the time BrailleBlaster is ready for use by anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>> than a developer the problems on the Mac may be resolved. We can
>>>>>>>>>>>> add a
>>>>>>>>>>>> little pressure to the Eclipse developers to help things along.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The idea
>>>>>>>>>>>> of using the SWT browser to present GUI content is interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The classpaths specified in the ant build.xml file go iknto the
>>>>>>>>>>>> manifest
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the BrailleBlaster jar file. This makes callinng BrailleBlaster
>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>> convenient on my flavor of Linux and on Windows. We could make
>>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>>> versions of BrailleBlaster for different distros, but I think that
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> something for the early adapters who use these distros to worry
>>>>>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They will know their own flavors. And many of them won't care
>>>>>>>>>>>> about the
>>>>>>>>>>>> standard locations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's learn from Alex's experience in proting BrailleBlaster to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Mac.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Concern about various Linux flavors at this time is a distraction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for me, I'm concentrating on getting BrailleBlaster to work
>>>>>>>>>>>> with at
>>>>>>>>>>>> least generic embossers. Then I'll make a simple text editor using
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> GUI. the experience in doing this will be necessary to make the
>>>>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>>>> GUI. The text editor will remain as a BrailleBlaster feature to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>>>> by advanced users.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Incidentally, BrailleBlaster is a single word. It should not have
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> space.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
>>>>>>>>>>>> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>>>>>>>>>>>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- End forwarded message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
>>>>>>>>>>>> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>>>>>>>>>>>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
>>>>>>>>>> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>>>>>>>>>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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