[brailleblaster] Re: Some Thoughts
- From: "John Gardner" <john.gardner@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 14:13:13 -0800
Hello all, well I'm not sure whether I speak for ViewPlus, but I believe
that all the people who started BrailleBlaster are committed to developing
it as a multi-OS application. Admittedly the Windows version is the most
important simply because the great majority of current users work in
Windows. I believe that BrailleBlaster development needs to heed its
multi-platform target and make sure that it will eventually work on Mac and
Linux. However, the first robust target must be Windows, with good Mac and
Linux versions perhaps taking more time.
John Gardner
-----Original Message-----
From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:56 PM
To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Some Thoughts
I am going to be direct, you keep bringing it up and honesty may be the
only way to get to the bottom of it.
I am getting the feeling your issue is not really with SWT but rather
with Java. What is it about Java you don't like?
As an example to why I draw the conclusion above, you say use
C/C++/objective-c for logic code but possibly use SWT for the UI. The
rationale you give for this is to have the possibility of being able to
develop a native GUI for the Mac. Well having the logic code in Java
also would allow for that as I have pointed out in the past. Java can
access native code and so use the platform's native GUI libraries
directly. The example I have given before is cyberduck
http://www.cyberduck.ch, which in fact Apple have put in their list of
applications accessible with voiceover
http://www.apple.com/accessibility/voiceover/applications.html, look
under utilities.
I won't say my views on the app store again, other than to mention, Macs
only represent a small number of users, as Linux probably does, and so
technologies of one platform, particularly optional ones which the app
store seems to be, should not drive the direction of the project.
I guess the last say on all this could and probably does fall back to
ViewPlus, who are the ones wanting this project. How important is the
Mac to ViewPlus? What is the minimum acceptable standard of support for
the Mac? Oh, and I am not getting at the Macs here,the same questions
should be asked for the other platforms.
Michael Whapples
On 02/02/11 17:49, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If we use the web approach, we can style the applcations to look like
native Mac apps.
>
> These are the headaches that just kill me about cross-platform stuff.
>
> If we only wrote hte main logic in something like C, Objective-C or C++
and then did our UI's in SWT, that would at least give us the possibility to
write an alternative UI down the road for the Mac.
>
> Regards,
> Alex,
>
>
> On 2011-02-02, at 9:41 AM, Chris von See wrote:
>
>> Highly unlikely - rule 2.24
ofhttp://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/files/mac-app-review.pdf seems
pretty clear:
>>
>> 2.24 Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g.,
Java, Rosetta) will be rejected
>>
>> You *may* be able to get around the rules regarding deprecated
technologies by bundling a JRE (it would almost certainly need to be
SoyLatte since you can't include anything with a third-party installer such
as an Oracle JRE for Mac). You almost certainly will not be able to get
around the requirement that the UI adhere to the Mac Human Interface
Guidelines - Java apps that don't use Apple's enhanced JRE look nothing like
native Mac apps.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 2, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I realize that.
>>>
>>> However, I think that including a JDK might solve this.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alex,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2011-02-02, at 9:28 AM, Chris von See wrote:
>>>
>>>> Java applications cannot be included in the Mac App Store. Java is now
considered to be an "optional" technology on the Mac, according to Apple.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 2, 2011, at 9:21 AM, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>
>>>>> I was refering more to Chris' message about using STW's browser
control as a UI. That would get us half way to having a web app, would it
not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, that depends on how we end up doing the UI.
>>>>>
>>>>> About the auto updater, I am working on it because this is where I
feel the most confident, creating a boot loader.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is my question.
>>>>>
>>>>> How far along are we in the 2 year development cycle? The website does
not list a date that the project was started on.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have also been investigating the rules for submitting the
application through Apple's Mac App Store.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know it is a little early for this, but I have read about developers
who wrote entire applications that got rejected because of something that
was too difficult to change at the time of submission.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2011-02-02, at 9:13 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry about the need to modify your application bundle, but
>>>>>> BrailleBlaster has always been written as one word.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you are getting ahead of us. It is too early to include
>>>>>> auto-updatre, and a web application is a whold divverent project. We
>>>>>> have to stick to what we are doing. After BrailleBlaster is working
as a
>>>>>> desktop application we can consider a Web application.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 08:52:17AM -0800, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose that the Mac issues should be resolved in any case. This
would help the Mac community as a whole.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've built my boot loader now, but I can't test it yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you get a chance to look at my mock up yet?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alex Jurgensen,
>>>>>>> VoiceOver Trainer,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit me on the web at:http://www.vipbc.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2011-02-02, at 12:19 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've read through all these messages, and I'm convinced we should
stick
>>>>>>>> with SWT. By the time BrailleBlaster is ready for use by anybody
other
>>>>>>>> than a developer the problems on the Mac may be resolved. We can
add a
>>>>>>>> little pressure to the Eclipse developers to help things along. The
idea
>>>>>>>> of using the SWT browser to present GUI content is interesting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The classpaths specified in the ant build.xml file go iknto the
manifest
>>>>>>>> of the BrailleBlaster jar file. This makes callinng BrailleBlaster
very
>>>>>>>> convenient on my flavor of Linux and on Windows. We could make
different
>>>>>>>> versions of BrailleBlaster for different distros, but I think that
is
>>>>>>>> something for the early adapters who use these distros to worry
about.
>>>>>>>> They will know their own flavors. And many of them won't care about
the
>>>>>>>> standard locations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's learn from Alex's experience in proting BrailleBlaster to the
Mac.
>>>>>>>> Concern about various Linux flavors at this time is a distraction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for me, I'm concentrating on getting BrailleBlaster to work with
at
>>>>>>>> least generic embossers. Then I'll make a simple text editor using
a
>>>>>>>> GUI. the experience in doing this will be necessary to make the
real
>>>>>>>> GUI. The text editor will remain as a BrailleBlaster feature to be
used
>>>>>>>> by advanced users.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Incidentally, BrailleBlaster is a single word. It should not have
a
>>>>>>>> space.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
>>>>>>>> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>>>>>>>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>>>>>>>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- End forwarded message -----
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
>>>>>>>> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>>>>>>>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>>>>>>>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
>>>>>> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>>>>>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>>>>>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
Other related posts: