Mary,
No, I'm not disappointed. Some of my most favorite social activists were
Catholics: The Berrigan Brothers, the Catholic workers, for example. I was
delighted with the Nuns on the Bus.
I gather from the way in which you write, that you are Catholic. Am I right?
Yes, I can tel some sad stories about how Catholic teachings affected people
negatively, just as I know similar stories about Jewish, Protestant, and
Muslim beliefs that have had negative effects. And I also know about all of
the positive effects.
Perhaps I should explain something. Unlike some other people on email lists,
I'm not here because I enjoy arguing or debates. I do enjoy exchanges of
opinions and I like to post articles which I find interesting. But I'm not
looking for controversy. I'm not here to criticize people's beliefs or
philosophies. I have been trying, for all the years that I've been on this
list, and on some others, to relate respectfully to other people. The
problem is that communicating solely with the written word, can be
challenging. The correct feeling that one wants to communicate, doesn't
always come across properly. Most of the time, Blind Democracy has been a
warm, friendly, and accepting place, but not always. We've had some
expressions of anger or rage. Some list members have left because they felt
this was the wrong place for them. One individual seemed to have joined,
solely to be disruptive. But somehow, we're still here, at least some of us
are.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 5:37 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Gee Marion, you sound almost disappointed that the Catholic Church is
proclaiming social consciousness. And they always have. This guy in a bit
more of a straight line. But I can't think of any other world wide
institution that does as good a job.
Now wait. Yes I know, there are a lot of screw ups. But there are among any
group, humanists included. And to say you remember Catholics affected by
church teachings?! Again, in any group some individuals can be treated, or
interpret teachings in a harmful way. That's life. Filled with flawed
humans.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:13 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
The decision related to medical insurance plans was that contraception is no
longer being required to cover contraception. Right now, this administration
is making more moves in that direction. If you can go to Walmart and fill a
prescription for a contraceptive pill for $4, you first need to acquire that
prescription from a physician. If you don't have the funds to pay for the
medical appointment and your insurance won't cover it, you won't be able to
take a prescription anywhere to be filled. If you're on Medicaid and
Medicaid doesn't cover contraception, then you may not be able to afford
contraception. Because I am 80 years old, I clearly remember a time when it
was difficult for people to acquire effective contraception. I remember when
it was almost impossible for an unmarried woman to do so. I also clearly
remember what life was like for us before abortion was legalized. For me,
the issue isn't just an abstract matter. I can tell stories about real
people whose lives were profoundly affected by the laws back then.
There's a difference between the Catholic Church and the Religious Right and
at the moment, because of the particular Pope who heads the Church, the
Catholic Church has made much more liberal pronouncements than is usually
the case. And, of course, the Church, like every other institution, includes
people with a variety of views on the subject of birth control and abortion.
But I also remember how some very close friends of mine who were Catholic,
were affected by the Church's teachings.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:42 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Miriam,
Anyone can walk into Walmart and purchase Plan B birth control for $4
without a prescription. No script needed for spermicides. Or condoms. Get
a script and you can purchase the pill for $4.00 at Walmart. I don't see
birth control is restricted.
The Right to Life group is specialized but the Catholic Church is against
capital punishment, war, capitalism, and consumerism.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 7:20 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
I overstated, but yes, I knew that not everyone in the organization protests
in front of clinics and not everyone who opposes abortion, is a member of
the organization. However, there are certainly political attempts to
restrict birth control right now, and there have been, for the past several
years. The Supreme Court supported one of them in a recent decision. I also
find it ironic that people who are concerned about the lives of unborn
babies, take no position on capital punishment. And I would also like to add
that sometimes, what is written down as official policy, may not be actual
policy.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 6:53 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Well Miriam, I should have added that any one or any group (since we are
social creatures) can misuse any social institution. But I hold to account
the flawed people and not the core of the world's religions, as I posted ten
common core beliefs in all religions.
Your bring up Right to Life people and say the quote normally unquote
protest clinics and confront women. Please read the following:
National Right to Life Committee
The National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) is a nonprofit organization that
seeks to end legalized Abortion
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/abortion> in the United
States. Founded in 1973, following the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Roe
v. Wade <http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Roe+v.+Wade> , 410
U.S. 113, 93 S. Ct. 705, 35 L. Ed. 2d 147 (1973), which held that women had
a constitutional right to abortion, the NRLC has become the leading
antiabortion organization in the United States. It has more than 7 million
members, with 3,000 local chapters and 50 state affiliates. It is
headquartered in Washington, D.C., and has an annual budget of more than $9
million. The National Right to Life News, a biweekly newsletter, has a
circulation of 135,000.
From its inception, the NRLC has sought the passage of a constitutional
amendment banning abortion. Though this effort has not been successful, the
NRLC has played an important role in state and federal legislation
regulating and restricting abortion, and has been instrumental in
restricting government funding of abortions to poor women. The NRLC has a
Political Action Committee
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Political+Action+Committee>
that endorses and campaigns for candidates who support its agenda, which
includes opposition to some forms of Birth Control
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Birth+Control> as well as
physician-assisted suicide. The committee states that it does not take a
position on issues such as contraception, sex education, Capital Punishment
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capital+punishment> , and
national defense.
So Miriam, you will note there are seven million members of the national
life organization. I would contend they all do not normally, as you said,
protest at clinics. I would guess a very small percentage does and then the
far radical groups are even a smaller number. This is not to take a
position on the organization itself but to illustrate our reality is based
on many of our biases. Note they also object to SOME forms of birth
control, not all. Would you have guessed that? It takes no position on sex
education, capital punishment or national defense. Bet you wouldn't have
thought that either.
Our society is way too anxious to have an us v. them, all or nothing, very
bellicose dialog. That will be our down fall. Both political parties have
taken their corners to use a boxing analogy and has left the gaping middle
ring for a Trump to raise his arm in victory. I read recently an article by
a leader of the DNC who proclaimed, if you don't believe in abortion we
don't want you in our party. And over the years, indeed, much to their
detriment, the Democrats have lost the conservative on some issue but
generally very socially liberal Catholic who helped JFK win office. We have
to start embracing diversity within our own groups, true diversity in
thought and ideas, not only race or religion.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 4:01 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Mary,
Yes, that's true. But it isn't just one individual. The novel follows one
individual, but it also talks about a real group called, "The Army of God",
and members of this group have, in fact, murdered abortion providers. They
do so in the belief that they are saving the lives of unborn babies. The
people who belong to "Right To Life" groups are usually Evangelical
Christians and very conservative Catholics and normally, they protest in
front of clinics where abortions are performed and they attempt to approach
individual women who are about to enter the clinics and try to convince them
not to do so. But in these groups, there are some even more extreme people
who believe that killing doctors who provide abortions, is justified. Every
religion has extreme sects and in each of these are even more extreme fringe
groups, and additionally, there are individuals in every religion who are
mentally ill and whose illness causes them to misconstrue religious
teaching. The character in the book I'm reading, does have emotional
problems which caused him to be attracted to the people who advocated
killing abortion providers. But in reality, when one tries to speak
objectively about these issues, it becomes very difficult to separate out
religious faith from pathology in some cases. Let me hasten to tell you
something about me because you are new to this list and don't know me. I'm a
retired social worker and when I attended social work school a very long
time ago, I did have to learn a good deal about psychology and human
behavior. I suppose that the other thing you should know about me is that my
background is Jewish, but I'm a secular person and the most accurate
description of my personal beliefs of philosophy would be "secular
humanism". But that's my own personal philosophy and I recognize that people
experience reality in a variety of ways.
Miriam
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of MARY CONVY
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 3:31 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
Miriam,
Any social institution can be mis-used by any one of the millions of flawed
humans that follow it. In this case the murderer took the religious
principal of holding sacred life and polluted it with his own mental
instability.
_____
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 12:14 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
I'm reading a really long, ponderous novel by Joyce Carol Oates called A
Book Of Martyrs. Well, Joyce Carol Oates tends to write in a ponderous
manner. But if one can manage to get through it, the book has a lot to say.
It's about the assassination of a doctor who works in women's centers in the
mid west and who, among other medical services, provides abortions. The book
describes the man who murdered the doctor and the man's family, including
their religious beliefs, psychological motivations, and socio-economic
status. It also describes the doctor, his family, and the details of their
lives and beliefs. This is really a picture of the great divide in our
society, in terms of educational status and cultural identity and although
it has something to do with social class, it is not related to the way in
which people on this list and in typical political discourse, refer to
class. There really seems to be no meeting ground because the basic
assumptions of these two groups are so different. But in relation to our
discussion about folks feeling so sure that they are right while people with
the opposite view are wrong, in the story, the man who is convinced that
killing an abortion provider is what Jesus wants him to do, has no concern
as to what the consequences of his act will be for his wife and children. On
the other side of the coin, the doctor who performs abortions, is aware that
his life is in danger. Other abortion providers have been killed. His wife
is begging him to stop doing this work because she's afraid that he, too,
will be killed and he has already provided this service for many years. But
he feels that his skills are badly needed and that the time has not yet
arrived for him to stop. In other words, he too, is being called to do what
he does and he does not consider the consequences to his wife and children.
In the end, both men die and their families are permanently damaged.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 11:11 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <mailto:%22Undisclosed-Recipient:,%22@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Undisclosed-Recipient:,"@freelists.org
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump for
evangelists
There is nothing so futile as an exercise in futility.
And once again we prove it. There are two hard and true facts in any
discussion of this nature. 1. I am right!
2. Everyone else is wrong!
Each of us, regardless of our basic Beliefs, become a Missionary, setting
out to demonstrate the "rightnous" of our Belief, and the "wrongness" of
everyone else. Sometimes we are gentle in our attack on everyone else, and
sometimes we become rather nasty. But always it is from the position of
each of us being Right, and everyone else, Wrong!
And when we are not defending our Belief, by attacking all others, we are
wondering why people can't seem to get along.
Now I'm not a Believer any longer. My reason for leaving the Faith was due
to this very demonstration. I awoke from a deep dream one morning and asked
myself, "Self! What sort of Almighty Creator would allow Humans to gather
in little self righteous groups and spend thousands of years fighting each
other?
But that's me, and I came to my present place in thought in my own way and
in my own time. To my simple mind, that is the only way each of us will
resolve this discussion. And then it will not matter what others believe,
just so long as they do not believe that they are obligated to kill me if I
do not believe as they do.
Carl Jarvis
On 10/8/17, Bob <ebob824@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ebob824@xxxxxxxxx> > wrote:
Hello. This is Bob Evans. I'm the author of the editorial attached below.
Please, read, fathom and if you wish, interact.
Bob Evans
______
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