Roger,
I've been around blind people ever since I was seven years of age and began
taking piano lessons at the music school at the Lighthouse, The New York
Association for the Blind. I had good partial vision until I was about 30
years old, and my vision has been diminishing ever since. I was married to a
man, 17 years older than I, who had been totally blind since early childhood
and who attended a residential school for the blind. From all I have learned
from my own observations and from what I've been told, very competent blind
individuals have always looked down at those who were less capable, and this
happened in residential schools for the blind. It had nothing to do with
when an individual became blind. It had to do with that individual's
perceived capabilities. It's a class structure specific to the blind
community that has something to do with variables other than money. However,
after having been away from social contacdts with blind people for quite
some time, I again became involved when I began going on trips, organized
for blind people. Most of the people whom I first encountered on those trips
were blind people who had worked in the blindness system and were now
retired. They had attained administrative positions by the time they
retired, had saved money, had good pensions, usually from government
agencies, and were not only very proud of their accomplishments, but felt
superior to all of the people who were unlucky enough not to have attained
their station in life. They were particularly critical of blind people who
were unemployed. I also encountered the same kind of people with the same
kind of attitudes at an ACBNY meeting of people who were planning a trip to
Albany to lobby legislators. There was a lot of gossip about people who were
perceived as misfits. I do think that your original guess at the motivation
of the people whom you encountered was correct, a way to make themselves
feel superior because really, being blind in a sighted world is a downer.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 9:48 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His
Youthful Supporters
Okay, I think I may see some of what you are saying, but I have not
experienced any of it on this list. I will say that before I became blind I
had only known two blind people and if I had known how much sight they
actually had I would not have considered them blind at that time. They were
partials. I also did not give much thought to blind people before I became
blind. I suppose I may have had some image of blind people before I became
blind even if it was not fully in my consciousness because once I did become
blind and found myself thrown into the midst of so many blind people I was
in for a number of surprises. I have discussed one of those surprises here.
That was my complete surprise at how religious most blind people were. But
there was another. That is that there is a lot of contempt for fellow blind
people who are not highly functional blind people. It doesn't matter that I
was newly blind and had not thought about ever becoming blind before and
that I had not completely figured out how to function. The mere fact that I
did not know how to do a lot of things caused me to be in the contemptuous
category. I never thought of it as some kind of discrimination against the
adventitiously blind. I thought of it only as a contempt against the not
fully functional blind as, possibly, a way to make oneself feel superior.
Could this be what you are interpreting as discrimination against the
adventitiously blind?
On 3/27/2016 11:52 AM, Frank Ventura wrote:
Joe, OK that is your opinion but I respect the right to disagree. I
have been told way too many times things like "what do you know about being
blind" and "you don't know what it means to be blind", and many more. I
remember very well what transpired after I went blind a dozen or so years
ago, while I was taking care of my mother, and how I was treated by the old
boy crowd with all of the "get a job you lazy slob", "stop taking stuff
that is only for us", "you're not a real blind person", etc and I have never
experienced such hatred from any identifiable group in my lifetime. I
remember this well and I know what the attitude is, kick out the
adventiciously blind before they get some of our crumbs. No Joe, I am not
sure when you first identified yourself as being blind; but if this has
neverhappened to you then I wish you well. But, for those of us that it has,
I can safely say that I am sick of it and will fight back at every
opportunity I can until the discrimination is eliminated.
Frank
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of joe harcz Comcast
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:38 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump
and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His
Youthful Supporters
Ok, now I've got better things to do but this is without
merit as I think most of us, including me and Carl, are also advitiously
blind.
I hate wheying in on these red herrings of your Frank. But,
this is simply not the case.
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Ventura <mailto:frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:23 AM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was
Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and
His Youthful Supporters
Does that apply to me as well? Or is it OK
to shout me down, since as someone whom is adventiciously blind I am
considered only 3/5ths human by some people here. I have seen Roger regarded
in the same light.
Frank
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:18 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was
Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and
His Youthful Supporters
It's called freedom of speech, and anybody
can jump into any discussion, interesting that you use the more pugilistic
"ring",
On Mar 27, 2016, at 7:38 AM, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
A point that was only meant to
attack the three of us, for her examples were false as it was actually her
that did the pidgeon holing with labeling me a party loyalist. Does she have
my entire voting record from the past three decades as evidence? If not than
her assertation is false. As far as my characterization of her as an older,
white, suburban woman on social security; that is accurate and came from her
own descriptions of herself over theyears. But there really wasn't any
reason for you to jump in the ring unless you were to do the very sanme
baiting you accused me of.
From: <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 7:32 AM
To: <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the
list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders
Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
I'm not wrong. Miriam
described a situation using the time-tested tool of giving examples. You
tried to get her to characterize, label, pigeonhole, whatever you want to
call it, the three people she used as examples to describe the situation and
to make her point.
On Mar 27, 2016, at 7:28 AM,
Frank Ventura < <mailto:frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well you are wrong, I never mentioned
anything about Ted, Roger et al; that was her. There was no need to throw
that line into the water.
From: <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 7:25 AM
To: <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions
on the list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For
Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
Actually, I
think it was you who were trying to bait her with the worms you mentioned.
On Mar 27, 2016, at 7:07 AM, Frank Ventura <
<mailto:frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Yes, I am fully aware that Miriam
was trying to bait me on when she started the stuff about Roger, Ted and I.
Actually that was my point with mentioning the can of worms.
Frank
From: <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 7:02 AM
To:
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re:
Discussions on the list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
and what are worms used for? bait.
stating that x, y, and z have
different political views is actually called stating the obvious.
On Mar 26, 2016, at 11:05 PM, Frank
Ventura < <mailto:frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Miriam, no no no that is what I
meant. When you say something like x y and z have different political views
then you have already opened that can of worms and they are crawling out.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From:
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Miriam Vieni
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 10:08
PM
To:
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re:
Discussions on the list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
No because that's precisely the kind
of discussion my post was objecting to.
The purpose of this list, as I
understand it, is not to comment on other list members political
viewpoints, religious viewpoints, lifestyles, or behavior. The purpose of
the list is to discuss issues.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ] On Behalf Of Frank Ventura
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 9:33
PM
To:
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re:
Discussions on the list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
Miriam, in your email below you said
that Ted, Roger and I have three different political points of view. Just
for my own edification can you describe each one. No challenge or digging up
dirt here just natural curiosity.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From:
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ] On Behalf Of Miriam Vieni
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 4:08
PM
To:
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy]
Discussions on the list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
First of all, if, like Alice,
everyone can easily find the articles they wish to read, the ones that are
not usually from mainstream sources, then there's no reason for any of us to
post to this list anymore. When I post, it's because I'd like to share
material that I think is interesting. Often, the articles have contradictory
opinions or information.
Ssecond: Discussing opinions,
disagreeing, bringing up counter arguments is what we're all about. But is
upsetting and objectionable, are personal attacks. And apparently, when
people are responsible for making them, they deny the responsibility. I tend
to get into a lot of difficulty on this list because I'm very articulate
about my feelings and opinions and I suppose, when I state them, it may
sound as if I think I'm stating the truth as passed down from God to me, to
be communicated to everyone else. But that isn't what I mean to do. I just
mean to say what I think and feel because this has been the only venue where
I could safely do that without disrupting personal relationships with people
in my life. But after my interchange with Frank, I began thinking about how
people have described me when they have disagreed with what I've said. They
haven't just disagreed. They have used words to describe the kind of person
they think I am and the kind of beliefs or attitudes they think I have. Ted
left the list, telling us that we were all, and this included everyone from
Dick to Frank, including Charlie, Joe, Penny, me, and Roger, all Marxists. I
think he used a word like unredeemable or some such thing. So I'm an
unredeemable marxist. On the other hand, Roger has said I'm a Liberal which,
from his point of view is an insult, that I'm therefore, an enemy of the
working class, I suppose. Last night, Frank said that because I'm an older
white person who is financially secure because I receive social security
benefits which no one will take away, I'm willing to sacrifice the financial
welfare of everyone else by allowing the Republicans to win the Presidential
election. Well, he wasn't quite as concise as that, but that was the
meaning of what he said. My point is that these three people, who have very
different political points of view from each other, but who, at one time or
another disagreed with something I said, chose to put me in a political
category and ascribe political beliefs and motives to me, none of which were
accurate, but all of which were meant as an insulting rebuttal in place of
clear arguments based on facts or the posting of articles that might have
made their points. So here on this tiny email list of blind people who
consider themselves to be politically progressive and fair minded, we have
difficulty dealing with differences of opinion in a kind, humane, rational
manner. No wonder we have candidates like Trump and a government, regardless
of which party is in power, that is constantly at war, trying to dominate
the rest of the world. We cannot even keep the peace on Blind Democracy.
Miriam
________________________________
From:
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 2:57
PM
To:
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump
and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His
Youthful Supporters
That's not entirely true at all. He
has outlined plans for almost everything he has proposed.
Google, go to Sanders's website,
check news reports from places like Mother Jones, Truthout, USUncut, Common
Dreams, interviews on those Sunday morning TV shows, which I never get to
listen to, CNN, ditto, since I don't get it, Democracy Now, The Young Turks,
Bill Moyers, Addicting Info, Liberal America, Occupy Democrats, Join the
Coffee Party, The Other 98 Percent, American News X, Occupy Wall Street, to
get you started, haha.so you see, I've been busy, and I have to say to no
one in particular, that I have not missed the squabbling and sniping that
goes on on this list and that we seem incapable of solving, nor have I
encountered such in other discussion groups I've been participating in.
And, like Joe, if it continues, I'm
going back into hiding.yeah, I know, who cares? Just saying.
And Marsha, I know this is coming as
part of a reply to you, but it of course has nothing to do with you or
anything you ever have said. OK?
.
On Mar 26, 2016, at 10:47 AM,
Martian.Lady < <mailto:martian.lady@xxxxxxxxx> martian.lady@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
HI
Unlike Hilary Bernie
does not say what he will do. he says he will do his best to accomplish his
goals.
Marsha
