There are many people who were born blind or who lost their sight in early
childhood that are marginally functional at best. In some of these cases it is
due to other factors such as other disabilities or low intellectual
functioning. However, more often than not it is due to choice or design of the
family environment where they were raised. I am much more disgusted when a
person chooses to be nonfunctional not as a result of other factors that
interfere as these people are the ones that give blind people as a whole a bad
rap. I too have been surprised by the high level of religiosity. When I was
running the local NFB chapter there were people who wanted to turn it in to a
prayer meeting and it wasn’t going to happen under the watch of this atheist.
Chuck
From: Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 6:47 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump and Clinton's
Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
Okay, I think I may see some of what you are saying, but I have not experienced
any of it on this list. I will say that before I became blind I had only known
two blind people and if I had known how much sight they actually had I would
not have considered them blind at that time. They were partials. I also did not
give much thought to blind people before I became blind. I suppose I may have
had some image of blind people before I became blind even if it was not fully
in my consciousness because once I did become blind and found myself thrown
into the midst of so many blind people I was in for a number of surprises. I
have discussed one of those surprises here. That was my complete surprise at
how religious most blind people were. But there was another. That is that there
is a lot of contempt for fellow blind people who are not highly functional
blind people. It doesn't matter that I was newly blind and had not thought
about ever becoming blind before and that I had not completely figured out how
to function. The mere fact that I did not know how to do a lot of things caused
me to be in the contemptuous category. I never thought of it as some kind of
discrimination against the adventitiously blind. I thought of it only as a
contempt against the not fully functional blind as, possibly, a way to make
oneself feel superior. Could this be what you are interpreting as
discrimination against the adventitiously blind?
On 3/27/2016 11:52 AM, Frank Ventura wrote:
Joe, OK that is your opinion but I respect the right to disagree. I have been
told way too many times things like “what do you know about being blind” and
“you don’t know what it means to be blind”, and many more. I remember very well
what transpired after I went blind a dozen or so years ago, while I was taking
care of my mother, and how I was treated by the old boy crowd with all of the
“get a job you lazy slob”, “stop taking stuff that is only for us”, “you’re not
a real blind person”, etc and I have never experienced such hatred from any
identifiable group in my lifetime. I remember this well and I know what the
attitude is, kick out the adventiciously blind before they get some of our
crumbs. No Joe, I am not sure when you first identified yourself as being
blind; but if this has neverhappened to you then I wish you well. But, for
those of us that it has, I can safely say that I am sick of it and will fight
back at every opportunity I can until the discrimination is eliminated.
Frank
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of joe harcz Comcast
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:38 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
Ok, now I've got better things to do but this is without merit as I think
most of us, including me and Carl, are also advitiously blind.
I hate wheying in on these red herrings of your Frank. But, this is simply
not the case.
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Ventura
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:23 AM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
Does that apply to me as well? Or is it OK to shout me down, since as
someone whom is adventiciously blind I am considered only 3/5ths human by some
people here. I have seen Roger regarded in the same light.
Frank
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman Humel
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:18 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
It’s called freedom of speech, and anybody can jump into any discussion,
interesting that you use the more pugilistic “ring”,
On Mar 27, 2016, at 7:38 AM, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
A point that was only meant to attack the three of us, for her examples
were false as it was actually her that did the pidgeon holing with labeling me
a party loyalist. Does she have my entire voting record from the past three
decades as evidence? If not than her assertation is false. As far as my
characterization of her as an older, white, suburban woman on social security;
that is accurate and came from her own descriptions of herself over theyears.
But there really wasn’t any reason for you to jump in the ring unless you were
to do the very sanme baiting you accused me of.
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman Humel
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 7:32 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
I’m not wrong. Miriam described a situation using the time-tested tool of
giving examples. You tried to get her to characterize, label, pigeonhole,
whatever you want to call it, the three people she used as examples to describe
the situation and to make her point.
On Mar 27, 2016, at 7:28 AM, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well you are wrong, I never mentioned anything about Ted, Roger et al;
that was her. There was no need to throw that line into the water.
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman Humel
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 7:25 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
Actually, I think it was you who were trying to bait her with the worms
you mentioned…
On Mar 27, 2016, at 7:07 AM, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yes, I am fully aware that Miriam was trying to bait me on when she
started the stuff about Roger, Ted and I. Actually that was my point with
mentioning the can of worms.
Frank
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman Humel
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 7:02 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
and what are worms used for? bait.
stating that x, y, and z have different political views is actually
called stating the obvious.
On Mar 26, 2016, at 11:05 PM, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Miriam, no no no that is what I meant. When you say something like
x y and z have different political views then you have already opened that can
of worms and they are crawling out.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Miriam Vieni
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 10:08 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump
and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His
Youthful Supporters
No because that's precisely the kind of discussion my post was
objecting to.
The purpose of this list, as I understand it, is not to comment on
other list members political viewpoints, religious viewpoints, lifestyles, or
behavior. The purpose of the list is to discuss issues.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Frank ;
Ventura
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 9:33 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump
and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His
Youthful Supporters
Miriam, in your email below you said that Ted, Roger and I have
three different political points of view. Just for my own edification can you
describe each one. No challenge or digging up dirt here just natural curiosity.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Miriam ;
Vieni
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 4:08 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Discussions on the list, was Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
First of all, if, like Alice, everyone can easily find the articles
they wish to read, the ones that are not usually from mainstream sources, then
there's no reason for any of us to post to this list anymore. When I post, it's
because I'd like to share material that I think is interesting. Often, the
articles have contradictory opinions or information.
Ssecond: Discussing opinions, disagreeing, bringing up counter
arguments is what we're all about. But is upsetting and objectionable, are
personal attacks. And apparently, when people are responsible for making them,
they deny the responsibility. I tend to get into a lot of difficulty on this
list because I'm very articulate about my feelings and opinions and I suppose,
when I state them, it may sound as if I think I'm stating the truth as passed
down from God to me, to be communicated to everyone else. But that isn't what I
mean to do. I just mean to say what I think and feel because this has been the
only venue where I could safely do that without disrupting personal
relationships with people in my life. But after my interchange with Frank, I
began thinking about how people have described me when they have disagreed with
what I've said. They haven't just disagreed. They have used words to describe
the kind of person they think I am and the kind of beliefs or attitudes they
think I have. Ted left the list, telling us that we were all, and this included
everyone from Dick to Frank, including Charlie, Joe, Penny, me, and Roger, all
Marxists. I think he used a word like unredeemable or some such thing. So I'm
an unredeemable marxist. On the other hand, Roger has said I'm a Liberal which,
from his point of view is an insult, that I'm therefore, an enemy of the
working class, I suppose. Last night, Frank said that because I'm an older
white person who is financially secure because I receive social security
benefits which no one will take away, I'm willing to sacrifice the financial
welfare of everyone else by allowing the Republicans to win the Presidential
election. Well, he wasn't quite as concise as that, but that was the meaning
of what he said. My point is that these three people, who have very different
political points of view from each other, but who, at one time or another
disagreed with something I said, chose to put me in a political category and
ascribe political beliefs and motives to me, none of which were accurate, but
all of which were meant as an insulting rebuttal in place of clear arguments
based on facts or the posting of articles that might have made their points. So
here on this tiny email list of blind people who consider themselves to be
politically progressive and fair minded, we have difficulty dealing with
differences of opinion in a kind, humane, rational manner. No wonder we have
candidates like Trump and a government, regardless of which party is in power,
that is constantly at war, trying to dominate the rest of the world. We cannot
even keep the peace on Blind Democracy.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice ;
Dampman Humel
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 2:57 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses
Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
That's not entirely true at all. He has outlined plans for almost
everything he has proposed.
Google, go to Sanders's website, check news reports from places
like Mother Jones, Truthout, USUncut, Common Dreams, interviews on those Sunday
morning TV shows, which I never get to listen to, CNN, ditto, since I don't get
it, Democracy Now, The Young Turks, Bill Moyers, Addicting Info, Liberal
America, Occupy Democrats, Join the Coffee Party, The Other 98 Percent,
American News X, Occupy Wall Street, to get you started, haha.so you see, I've
been busy, and I have to say to no one in particular, that I have not missed
the squabbling and sniping that goes on on this list and that we seem incapable
of solving, nor have I encountered such in other discussion groups I've been
participating in.
And, like Joe, if it continues, I'm going back into hiding.yeah, I
know, who cares? Just saying.
And Marsha, I know this is coming as part of a reply to you, but it
of course has nothing to do with you or anything you ever have said. OK?
.
On Mar 26, 2016, at 10:47 AM, Martian.Lady <martian.lady@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
HI
Unlike Hilary Bernie does not say what he will do. he
says he will do his best to accomplish his goals.
Marsha
