Okay, I think I may see some of what you are saying, but I have not
experienced any of it on this list. I will say that before I became
blind I had only known two blind people and if I had known how much
sight they actually had I would not have considered them blind at that
time. They were partials. I also did not give much thought to blind
people before I became blind. I suppose I may have had some image of
blind people before I became blind even if it was not fully in my
consciousness because once I did become blind and found myself thrown
into the midst of so many blind people I was in for a number of
surprises. I have discussed one of those surprises here. That was my
complete surprise at how religious most blind people were. But there was
another. That is that there is a lot of contempt for fellow blind people
who are not highly functional blind people. It doesn't matter that I was
newly blind and had not thought about ever becoming blind before and
that I had not completely figured out how to function. The mere fact
that I did not know how to do a lot of things caused me to be in the
contemptuous category. I never thought of it as some kind of
discrimination against the adventitiously blind. I thought of it only as
a contempt against the not fully functional blind as, possibly, a way to
make oneself feel superior. Could this be what you are interpreting as
discrimination against the adventitiously blind?
On 3/27/2016 11:52 AM, Frank Ventura wrote:
Joe, OK that is your opinion but I respect the right to disagree. I have been told way too many times things like “what do you know about being blind” and “you don’t know what it means to be blind”, and many more. I remember very well what transpired after I went blind a dozen or so years ago, while I was taking care of my mother, and how I was treated by the old boy crowd with all of the “get a job you lazy slob”, “stop taking stuff that is only for us”, “you’re not a real blind person”, etc and I have never experienced such hatred from any identifiable group in my lifetime. I remember this well and I know what the attitude is, kick out the adventiciously blind before they get some of our crumbs. No Joe, I am not sure when you first identified yourself as being blind; but if this has neverhappened to you then I wish you well. But, for those of us that it has, I can safely say that I am sick of it and will fight back at every opportunity I can until the discrimination is eliminated.
Frank
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *joe harcz Comcast
*Sent:* Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:38 AM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
Ok, now I've got better things to do but this is without merit as I think most of us, including me and Carl, are also advitiously blind.
I hate wheying in on these red herrings of your Frank. But, this is simply not the case.
----- Original Message -----
*From:*Frank Ventura <mailto:frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*To:*blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:*Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:23 AM
*Subject:*[blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was Trump
and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign
and His Youthful Supporters
Does that apply to me as well? Or is it OK to shout me down, since
as someone whom is adventiciously blind I am considered only
3/5ths human by some people here. I have seen Roger regarded in
the same light.
Frank
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Alice
Dampman Humel
*Sent:* Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:18 AM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was
Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders
Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
It’s called freedom of speech, and anybody can jump into any
discussion, interesting that you use the more pugilistic “ring”,
On Mar 27, 2016, at 7:38 AM, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
A point that was only meant to attack the three of us, for her
examples were false as it was actually her that did the
pidgeon holing with labeling me a party loyalist. Does she
have my entire voting record from the past three decades as
evidence? If not than her assertation is false. As far as my
characterization of her as an older, white, suburban woman on
social security; that is accurate and came from her own
descriptions of herself over theyears. But there really wasn’t
any reason for you to jump in the ring unless you were to do
the very sanme baiting you accused me of.
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]*On
Behalf Of*Alice Dampman Humel
*Sent:*Sunday, March 27, 2016 7:32 AM
*To:*blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:*[blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list, was
Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders
Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
I’m not wrong. Miriam described a situation using the
time-tested tool of giving examples. You tried to get her to
characterize, label, pigeonhole, whatever you want to call it,
the three people she used as examples to describe the
situation and to make her point.
On Mar 27, 2016, at 7:28 AM, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Well you are wrong, I never mentioned anything about Ted,
Roger et al; that was her. There was no need to throw that
line into the water.
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]*On
Behalf Of*Alice Dampman Humel
*Sent:*Sunday, March 27, 2016 7:25 AM
*To:*blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:*[blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the list,
was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For
Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
Actually, I think it was you who were trying to bait her
with the worms you mentioned…
On Mar 27, 2016, at 7:07 AM, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Yes, I am fully aware that Miriam was trying to bait
me on when she started the stuff about Roger, Ted and
I. Actually that was my point with mentioning the can
of worms.
Frank
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]*On
Behalf Of*Alice Dampman Humel
*Sent:*Sunday, March 27, 2016 7:02 AM
*To:*blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:*[blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the
list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
and what are worms used for? bait.
stating that x, y, and z have different political
views is actually called stating the obvious.
On Mar 26, 2016, at 11:05 PM, Frank Ventura
<frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Miriam, no no no that is what I meant. When you
say something like x y and z have different
political views then you have already opened that
can of worms and they are crawling out.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Miriam Vieni
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 10:08 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the
list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
No because that's precisely the kind of discussion
my post was objecting to.
The purpose of this list, as I understand it, is
not to comment on other list members political
viewpoints, religious viewpoints, lifestyles, or
behavior. The purpose of the list is to discuss
issues.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Frank Ventura
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 9:33 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Discussions on the
list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
Miriam, in your email below you said that Ted,
Roger and I have three different political points
of view. Just for my own edification can you
describe each one. No challenge or digging up dirt
here just natural curiosity.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Miriam Vieni
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 4:08 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Discussions on the
list, was Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful
Supporters
First of all, if, like Alice, everyone can easily
find the articles they wish to read, the ones that
are not usually from mainstream sources, then
there's no reason for any of us to post to this
list anymore. When I post, it's because I'd like
to share material that I think is interesting.
Often, the articles have contradictory opinions or
information.
Ssecond: Discussing opinions, disagreeing,
bringing up counter arguments is what we're all
about. But is upsetting and objectionable, are
personal attacks. And apparently, when people are
responsible for making them, they deny the
responsibility. I tend to get into a lot of
difficulty on this list because I'm very
articulate about my feelings and opinions and I
suppose, when I state them, it may sound as if I
think I'm stating the truth as passed down from
God to me, to be communicated to everyone else.
But that isn't what I mean to do. I just mean to
say what I think and feel because this has been
the only venue where I could safely do that
without disrupting personal relationships with
people in my life. But after my interchange with
Frank, I began thinking about how people have
described me when they have disagreed with what
I've said. They haven't just disagreed. They have
used words to describe the kind of person they
think I am and the kind of beliefs or attitudes
they think I have. Ted left the list, telling us
that we were all, and this included everyone from
Dick to Frank, including Charlie, Joe, Penny, me,
and Roger, all Marxists. I think he used a word
like unredeemable or some such thing. So I'm an
unredeemable marxist. On the other hand, Roger has
said I'm a Liberal which, from his point of view
is an insult, that I'm therefore, an enemy of the
working class, I suppose. Last night, Frank said
that because I'm an older white person who is
financially secure because I receive social
security benefits which no one will take away, I'm
willing to sacrifice the financial welfare of
everyone else by allowing the Republicans to win
the Presidential election. Well, he wasn't quite
as concise as that, but that was the meaning of
what he said. My point is that these three
people, who have very different political points
of view from each other, but who, at one time or
another disagreed with something I said, chose to
put me in a political category and ascribe
political beliefs and motives to me, none of which
were accurate, but all of which were meant as an
insulting rebuttal in place of clear arguments
based on facts or the posting of articles that
might have made their points. So here on this tiny
email list of blind people who consider themselves
to be politically progressive and fair minded, we
have difficulty dealing with differences of
opinion in a kind, humane, rational manner. No
wonder we have candidates like Trump and a
government, regardless of which party is in power,
that is constantly at war, trying to dominate the
rest of the world. We cannot even keep the peace
on Blind Democracy.
Miriam
________________________________
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Alice Dampman Humel
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 2:57 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump and Clinton's
Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders
Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
That's not entirely true at all. He has outlined
plans for almost everything he has proposed.
Google, go to Sanders's website, check news
reports from places like Mother Jones, Truthout,
USUncut, Common Dreams, interviews on those Sunday
morning TV shows, which I never get to listen to,
CNN, ditto, since I don't get it, Democracy Now,
The Young Turks, Bill Moyers, Addicting Info,
Liberal America, Occupy Democrats, Join the Coffee
Party, The Other 98 Percent, American News X,
Occupy Wall Street, to get you started, haha.so
you see, I've been busy, and I have to say to no
one in particular, that I have not missed the
squabbling and sniping that goes on on this list
and that we seem incapable of solving, nor have I
encountered such in other discussion groups I've
been participating in.
And, like Joe, if it continues, I'm going back
into hiding.yeah, I know, who cares? Just saying.
And Marsha, I know this is coming as part of a
reply to you, but it of course has nothing to do
with you or anything you ever have said. OK?
.
On Mar 26, 2016, at 10:47 AM, Martian.Lady
<martian.lady@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:martian.lady@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
HI
Unlike Hilary Bernie does not say what he will
do. he says he will do his best to accomplish his
goals.
Marsha
