Miriam:
Does this indicate that cow one is not cow two is not cow three, & etc?
On 7/23/2015 2:57 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Scholars and Marxists have specific class definitions, but most other people
don't. Language is a living thing. Meanings keep changing. So, to my
distress, does what is considered correct grammar. How people define
themselves in socio/economic terms, seems to me to be very subjective and
tends to be in their self interest. My friends, whose income is high enough
so that a larger sum is withdrawn from their social security benefits for
medicare than the rest of us, do not consider themselves to be wealthy.
Roger insists on what he considers to be scientific terms, but a lot of
people would disagree that what he thinks are scientific terms, actually
are. For them to agree, they would have to have the same frame of reference
as he does. But not everyone thinks that marxist analysis is accurate or
correct.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 3:20 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Bernie Sanders Takes His Populism to the Red
States and Draws Huge Crowd
The most significant class found between the ruling class and the working
class is the petty bourgeoisie. In that sense it is a middle class. It makes
a lot more sense to identify the petty bourgeoisie because it functions in a
specific economic role in a capitalist economy and it behaves certain ways
depending on the state of the class struggle. That is, it vacillates. When
the class struggle is not at a crisis point it tends to side with the ruling
class and takes advantage of the perks it gets from holding that position.
When the class struggle heats up it becomes possible to make alliances with
it because members of the petty bourgeoisie are in constant danger of being
dumped right into the proletariat anyway. If the so-called middle class
could be defined as the same thing as the petty bourgeoisie then it would
have a specific meaning and would just be a synonym for petty bourgeoisie.
Middle class is not, however, a scientific term and all the confusion about
what it even is on this list illustrates that. Not withstanding Alice's
objections based on some personal, but not explicit, definition of the term,
the most consistent use of the term refers to people who have graduated
college and then went on to matriculate in some post graduate school
designed for training in some vocation that requires a license to practice
and the school that trains them for that vocation requires graduation from
college in order to attend. The practitioners of these vocations usually
call themselves professionals as if there is no such thing as a professional
plumber or mechanic. In the sense that the skill levels for these
professions are high - that is, require a lot of education - and the pay
grade is normally a good deal higher than professions that require lesser
levels of education this is akin to the labor aristocracy. However, they
tend to be politically more akin to the petty bourgeoisie in that their
comfortable lifestyles are usually dependent on the stability of the ruling
national bourgeoisie as the ruling class. What it comes down to is that
everyone knows what the word middle means, but almost no one knows what the
phrase middle class means despite the fact that they almost all think they
do whether what they are so sure it means contradicts what others are so
sure it means or not. If we are to take the phrase middle class literally -
and I love to take everything literally because then I can tell what is
being talked about if everyone would just be cooperative enough to say what
they mean and mean what they say - there are several - at least - middle
classes. They are the petty bourgeoisie, the labor aristocracy, the
intelligentsia and more depending on how much of a splitter you are as
opposed to a lumper. And, as I have said before, each and every person is in
some position in the hierarchy that class society imposes as an individual.
Look at your acquaintances. Surely you can find some who are worse off than
yourself and others who are better off if only slightly. Some have just ever
so slightly more or less power than yourself or the person next to them. To
the super spllitter each person can be called a class and everyone is in the
middle of something except for whoever the two individuals are at the very
top and the very bottom. About the only use such super splitting will have,
though, might be for someone who is studying individual psychology. If you
are studying broad political and economic movements you have to engage in
some kind of lumping. Depending on your immediate purpose you might
sometimes do more lumping and at other times do more splitting, but when you
are lumping or splitting classes of people there is one thing you have to be
careful about. That is to know what you mean when you refer to any group and
know what you are referring to it for. If you just throw around vague terms
that mean one thing one minute and another thing another minute, if you call
most everyone you run into middle class, if you do not think clearly about
how these groups relate to each other then you are accomplishing nothing.
On 7/23/2015 3:01 AM, Frank Ventura wrote:
Alice and all, I always had issues with the term "middle class:.
Does that imply it is the middle between the working class and the ruling
class? There are certain groups of people such as doctors and cops that
enjoy certain protections that the working class does not. Like you said you
don't see cops and doctors being killed in jail cells for not using their
turn signal.
Frank
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 9:19 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Bernie Sanders Takes His Populism to
the Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
Doctors and lawyers, unless they're working in the free
clinics or for legal aid are most definitely not considered middle class.the
rest of what you say is an exposee of how you see the world and can't be
argued with for that reason, but that statement about doctors and lawyers
being middle class is inaccurate .just ask the doctors and lawyers
themselves, their patients and clients, their neighbors, and see what the
consensus is...
On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:50 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Like I have said, when you use a word or phrase to mean
everything it means nothing and when everyone calls themselves middle class
then middle class means nothing too. The trouble with that phrase, though,
is that it never really meant much in the first place. Literally, I suppose
it is somewhere in between upper and lower, but then you have to specify
where one class ends and another begins and by what criteria you are doing
the measuring. The terms upper and lower don't mean much either. If you want
to talk about classes then to do so with some kind of real meaning you have
to use terms that actually describe the role of the classes you are talking
about in the economic system you are talking about. With all that said,
though, I will have to admit that I have a very strong personal distaste for
that term middle class. Virtually every time I have heard the term being
used it has been used to derogate me and the people I associate with by
reassuring that person who is using it that they are better than us. The
vast majority of people I have ever known do not refer to themselves as part
of any class in normal conversation. If the conversation turns in a
direction that they have to call themselves something they will usually say
working people or poor people. The few who call themselves middle class,
though, do not have to have the conversation turn in a direction such that
they will have to identify their class. They make a point of telling you
that they are middle class to be sure that you will not mistake them for one
of you. Added to that, all of these obnoxious bourgeois politicians are
constantly talking about what they are going to do for the middle class as
if the vast majority of us do not even exist. When Joe Biden came to
Charleston a whole lot of poor people turned out for his speech. I know a
lot of them. His speech consisted of middle class this and middle class that
through the whole thing. Did he even have the slightest idea how much he was
turning off his audience. I really did hear at least two people say that
they were convinced that he didn't care a thing about us because all he
cared about was middle class people and in that context the phrase middle
class was used with a bit of a sneer. Traditionally the phrase middle class
refers to the professional class, that is, doctors, lawyers and the like.
Among most of my acquaintances those people are usually referred to as rich
people, not middle class people. That is, of course, inaccurate, but it is
the term that is used. There are two neighborhoods in Charleston that mainly
consist of those types. They are South Hills and Edgewood Drive. There are
other such neighborhoods, but it is those two that are normally referred to
by the most of the people I am acquainted with as snobville or where those
rich people live. By the way, John D. Rockefeller owns a house in South
Hills, so I suppose there really are some rich people there, except that
Rockefeller does not really live there. He only bought the house to
officially maintain a West Virginia residence so that he could be senator.
South Hills was about as low as I think he would ever be likely to go even
if he didn't have to live there though.
On 7/21/2015 11:23 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
When Carl and Roger talk about this, they ar using a
Marxist framework in
which class definitions are very specific. You are
using the terms in the
way most Americans use them. But it is also true
that blue collar workers
have been referring to themselves as middle class,
probably ever since they
moved to the suburbs, owned one or more cars, and a
color TV. Corporations'
advertising has sold everyone on the fantasy that
they are similar to the
rich which is why so many former Democrats voted for
Reagan. Was it in the
eighties that all these people began taking cruises?
Everyone purchased this
1 week fantasy of opulence. One or two thousand
people crowded onto a ship,
the majority in tiny windowless cabins, with fancy
looking public rooms and
unlimited food of mediocre quality on the less
expensive cruises and now, on
almost all of them, and nightly entertainment. And
each day, they stop at a
port and are shepherded in huge groups to places
where they can buy things.
And they all think they're doing what the rich do.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 10:16 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Bernie Sanders Takes
His Populism to the Red
States and Draws Huge Crowd
I also think there is significant overlap.many
working class people are
also middle class, and conversely, many middle class
people are
simultaneously working class. Socially and
economically, I don't see the two
as mutually exclusive, Under certain circumstances,
they seem to be two
different terms that describe the same thing. Maybe
it's a slant in one
direction or another, and the accusation leveled
that many middle class
people think calling themselves middle class somehow
elevates them above the
people they might call working class and look down
on is certainly true in
some cases, but some people always feel they have to
look down on somebody,
and I don't think this is characteristic of all or
even many denizens of the
middle class . I certainly know and have known in
the past, many so-called
middle class neighborhoods that are populated by
people who hold jobs
considered to be working class, not white collar.
And of course this kind of gray area does not exist
between let's say upper
and working class.
Alice
On Jul 20, 2015, at 3:54 PM, Miriam Vieni <
<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It may have something to do with the
fact that his background is
working
class. His family was Jewish, working
class, and he grew up in
Brooklyn.
He's a bit younger than I am, but our
childhood experiences are
probably
similar. One doesn't forget that, unless
one puts forth a lot of
effort to
do so.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger
Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 3:18 PM
To:
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Bernie
Sanders Takes His Populism to
the Red
States and Draws Huge Crowd
There is at least one point in favor of
Sanders. He, at least, gives
lip
service to working people instead of
assuming that the so-called
middle
class is the only class of people worth
addressing.
On 7/20/2015 2:33 PM, Miriam Vieni
wrote:
Published on Alternet
(http://www.alternet.org) Home >
Bernie Sanders
Takes His Populism to the
Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
________________________________________
Bernie Sanders Takes His
Populism to the Red States and
Draws Huge
Crowd By Zaid Jilani [1] /
AlterNet [2] July 19, 2015 Today,
Sanders
took his Southwestern tour
to Dallas and Houston. In Dallas,
he spoke
to nearly 10,000 people. The
senator condemned the
Democratic Party's
political strategy in the
South, saying that it has
"conceded half of
the states in the national
level." He said that when
"childhood
poverty in Texas is 27
percent, we've gotta take it on. When
34
percent of people living in
Texas have no health insurance,
we've
gotta take it on." The
people sitting in the bleachers
behind him took
to their feet to applaud
when he said it makes more sense to
invest in
"jobs and education" rather
than "incarceration," something
that has
become a feature of his
stump speech.
Sanders' speech in Phoenix
on Saturday night brought
together an
estimated eleven to twelve
thousand people - one of the
largest
political rallies in the
city's history (by comparison
Barack Obama
got 13,000 in January 2008
[3]). The crowd gave Sanders
standing
ovations at numerous points,
such as when he condemned
police
violence, called for
tuition-free college, and demanded that
American
provide for the veterans of
its wars. It's worth noting
that, in contrast
to Donald Trump's homogeneous audience,
Sanders'
crowd was extremely diverse;
there was heavy representation
of young
Latinos, with one activist
introducing the Senator before
his speech.
Bernie is campaigning across
the Southwest to show he has
broader
appeal than just the safe
blue-state regions of the country.
It is an
echo of the swing through
the South that Sanders did in
2013, when he
was still considering his
candidacy.
"I really strongly disagree
with this concept that there's a
blue
state and red state
America," he told In These Times in an
interview
that year. "I believe that
in every state in the country the
vast
majority of the people are
working people. These are people
who are
struggling to keep their
heads above water economically,
these are
people who want Social
Security defended, they want to raise
the
minimum wage, they want
changes in our trade policy. And to
basically
concede significant parts of
America, including the South,
to the
right-wing is to me not only
stupid politics, but even worse
than
that-you just do not turn
your backs on millions and
millions of working
people."
Although the majority of the
address in Phoenix was similar
to the
remarks the senator has
given around the country, there were
a few
innovations. "God bless Pope
Francis," he joked. "Some
people think my
economic views are radical,
you should check out this guy."
He also
ended his address on a note
of optimism, pointing out that
while some
may say this country can
never have truly universal health
care, this
is the same country that in
the span of two and a half years
successfully defeated both
the Germans and Japanese in the
Second World
War.
Watch the video of Sanders'
address below:
In Houston, Taylor Channing,
a 25 year-old from Houston who
has been
volunteering with his local
Bernie Sanders group, was
thrilled by Sanders'
visit.
"It's funny because whenever
I found out the other day that
he was
coming to Houston, I mean it
freaked out we weren't
expecting such a
gift or such an early visit
to one of the reddest states in
the
nation," he exclaimed. "I've
never seen such a response to a
progressive campaign in my
lifetime. I thought the response
I saw to
Obama was huge but this is
just, I mean it's just, it's
insane."
For Channing, this
Southwestern tour is a sending a message
to the
entire country about the
Bernie Sanders' attitude towards
politics. In
his mind, Sanders is saying
"I have no druthers about
showing up in
what is perceived to be a
conservative bastion and just
being who I am
and seeing how the people
respond."
By the looks of the response
in Phoenix and the expected
response in
Texas Sunday evening, this
strategy is working.
Zaid Jilani is an AlterNet
staff writer. Follow @zaidjilani
[4] on
Twitter.
Share on Facebook
Share
Share on Twitter
Tweet
Report typos and corrections
to 'corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx'.
[5]
[6]
________________________________________
Source URL:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-takes-his-populis
m-red-
states-and-draws-huge-crowd
Links:
[1]
http://www.alternet.org/authors/zaid-jilani-0
[2] http://alternet.org
[3]
http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2008/01/31/75657-obama-rally-draws-13-
000-in
-phx/
[4]
https://twitter.com/zaidjilani
[5]
mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo on Bernie
Sanders
Takes His Populism to the
Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
[6]
http://www.alternet.org/ [7]
http://www.alternet.org/%2Bnew_src%2B
Published on Alternet
(http://www.alternet.org) Home >
Bernie Sanders
Takes His Populism to the
Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
Bernie Sanders Takes His
Populism to the Red States and
Draws Huge
Crowd By Zaid Jilani [1] /
AlterNet [2] July 19, 2015 Today,
Sanders
took his Southwestern tour
to Dallas and Houston. In Dallas,
he spoke
to nearly 10,000 people. The
senator condemned the
Democratic Party's
political strategy in the
South, saying that it has
"conceded half of
the states in the national
level." He said that when
"childhood
poverty in Texas is 27
percent, we've gotta take it on. When
34
percent of people living in
Texas have no health insurance,
we've
gotta take it on." The
people sitting in the bleachers
behind him took
to their feet to applaud
when he said it makes more sense to
invest in
"jobs and education" rather
than "incarceration," something
that has
become a feature of his
stump speech.
Sanders' speech in Phoenix
on Saturday night brought
together an
estimated eleven to twelve
thousand people - one of the
largest
political rallies in the
city's history (by comparison
Barack Obama
got 13,000 in January 2008
[3]). The crowd gave Sanders
standing
ovations at numerous points,
such as when he condemned
police
violence, called for
tuition-free college, and demanded that
American
provide for the veterans of
its wars. It's worth noting
that, in contrast
to Donald Trump's homogeneous audience,
Sanders'
crowd was extremely diverse;
there was heavy representation
of young
Latinos, with one activist
introducing the Senator before
his speech.
Bernie is campaigning across
the Southwest to show he has
broader
appeal than just the safe
blue-state regions of the country.
It is an
echo of the swing through
the South that Sanders did in
2013, when he
was still considering his
candidacy.
"I really strongly disagree
with this concept that there's a
blue
state and red state
America," he told In These Times in an
interview
that year. "I believe that
in every state in the country the
vast
majority of the people are
working people. These are people
who are
struggling to keep their
heads above water economically,
these are
people who want Social
Security defended, they want to raise
the
minimum wage, they want
changes in our trade policy. And to
basically
concede significant parts of
America, including the South,
to the
right-wing is to me not only
stupid politics, but even worse
than
that-you just do not turn
your backs on millions and
millions of working
people."
Although the majority of the
address in Phoenix was similar
to the
remarks the senator has
given around the country, there were
a few
innovations. "God bless Pope
Francis," he joked. "Some
people think my
economic views are radical,
you should check out this guy."
He also
ended his address on a note
of optimism, pointing out that
while some
may say this country can
never have truly universal health
care, this
is the same country that in
the span of two and a half years
successfully defeated both
the Germans and Japanese in the
Second World
War.
Watch the video of Sanders'
address below:
In Houston, Taylor Channing,
a 25 year-old from Houston who
has been
volunteering with his local
Bernie Sanders group, was
thrilled by Sanders'
visit.
"It's funny because whenever
I found out the other day that
he was
coming to Houston, I mean it
freaked out we weren't
expecting such a
gift or such an early visit
to one of the reddest states in
the
nation," he exclaimed. "I've
never seen such a response to a
progressive campaign in my
lifetime. I thought the response
I saw to
Obama was huge but this is
just, I mean it's just, it's
insane."
For Channing, this
Southwestern tour is a sending a message
to the
entire country about the
Bernie Sanders' attitude towards
politics. In
his mind, Sanders is saying
"I have no druthers about
showing up in
what is perceived to be a
conservative bastion and just
being who I am
and seeing how the people
respond."
By the looks of the response
in Phoenix and the expected
response in
Texas Sunday evening, this
strategy is working.
Zaid Jilani is an AlterNet
staff writer. Follow @zaidjilani
[4] on
Twitter.
Error! Hyperlink reference
not valid.
Error! Hyperlink reference
not valid.
Report typos and corrections
to 'corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx'.
[5] Error!
Hyperlink reference not
valid.[6]
Source URL:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-takes-his-populis
m-red-
states-and-draws-huge-crowd
Links:
[1]
http://www.alternet.org/authors/zaid-jilani-0
[2] http://alternet.org
[3]
http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2008/01/31/75657-obama-rally-draws-13-
000-in
-phx/
[4]
https://twitter.com/zaidjilani
[5]
mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo on Bernie
Sanders
Takes His Populism to the
Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
[6]
http://www.alternet.org/ [7]
http://www.alternet.org/%2Bnew_src%2B
