Miriam:
I took the liberty of reading a summary of a biography of Ms.
Powdermaker. Absolutely fascinating!
R. E. (Dick) Driscoll, Sr.
On 7/24/2015 9:16 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
In college, I had a professor who was a famous anthropologist, Hortense
Powdermaker. The course I took from her had to do with race relations in the
US. She had written a famous book about the subject in which she said that
the relationship between whites and blacks in this country is a caste
system.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 9:44 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Bernie Sanders Takes His Populism to the Red
States and Draws Huge Crowd
In broad terms isn't the caste system in India simply a method of keeping
different groups of people "in their place"? Here in our free democracy, we
keep some folks confined to the slums and ghettos. We keep others in
suburban areas. Our various laws still keep women in a minority position.
We have special gathering places such as country clubs and private clubs for
certain landed gentry. We allow private schools for those who have
financial means. And don't forget how we control our disabled folks. The
list is endless but we can see the results. We are kept pretty much in our
Group. And very few escape.
As I say, you can find articles that will show that there are vast
differences between the Caste System in India and the Control System that we
live under, but the result is the same. Keep the people in their places.
And it is those in power who determine just what those places are, and how
confining they are.
Carl Jarvis
On 7/24/15, R. E. Driscoll Sr <llocsirdsr@xxxxxxx> wrote:
All:you have to engage in some kind of lumping.
It is beginning to appear to me that what we are really recommending
is the so-called Caste System of India.
R. E. (Dick) Driscoll, Sr.
On 7/23/2015 7:59 PM, Frank Ventura wrote:
OK, I see the logic in what you say here.
Frank
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Roger
Loran Bailey
*Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2015 3:20 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Bernie Sanders Takes His Populism to
the Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
The most significant class found between the ruling class and the
working class is the petty bourgeoisie. In that sense it is a middle
class. It makes a lot more sense to identify the petty bourgeoisie
because it functions in a specific economic role in a capitalist
economy and it behaves certain ways depending on the state of the
class struggle. That is, it vacillates. When the class struggle is
not at a crisis point it tends to side with the ruling class and
takes advantage of the perks it gets from holding that position. When
the class struggle heats up it becomes possible to make alliances
with it because members of the petty bourgeoisie are in constant
danger of being dumped right into the proletariat anyway. If the
so-called middle class could be defined as the same thing as the
petty bourgeoisie then it would have a specific meaning and would
just be a synonym for petty bourgeoisie. Middle class is not,
however, a scientific term and all the confusion about what it even
is on this list illustrates that. Not withstanding Alice's objections
based on some personal, but not explicit, definition of the term, the
most consistent use of the term refers to people who have graduated
college and then went on to matriculate in some post graduate school
designed for training in some vocation that requires a license to
practice and the school that trains them for that vocation requires
graduation from college in order to attend. The practitioners of
these vocations usually call themselves professionals as if there is
no such thing as a professional plumber or mechanic. In the sense
that the skill levels for these professions are high - that is,
require a lot of education - and the pay grade is normally a good
deal higher than professions that require lesser levels of education
this is akin to the labor aristocracy. However, they tend to be
politically more akin to the petty bourgeoisie in that their
comfortable lifestyles are usually dependent on the stability of the
ruling national bourgeoisie as the ruling class. What it comes down
to is that everyone knows what the word middle means, but almost no
one knows what the phrase middle class means despite the fact that
they almost all think they do whether what they are so sure it means
contradicts what others are so sure it means or not. If we are to
take the phrase middle class literally - and I love to take
everything literally because then I can tell what is being talked
about if everyone would just be cooperative enough to say what they
mean and mean what they say - there are several - at least - middle
classes. They are the petty bourgeoisie, the labor aristocracy, the
intelligentsia and more depending on how much of a splitter you are
as opposed to a lumper. And, as I have said before, each and every
person is in some position in the hierarchy that class society
imposes as an individual. Look at your acquaintances. Surely you can
find some who are worse off than yourself and others who are better
off if only slightly. Some have just ever so slightly more or less
power than yourself or the person next to them. To the super
spllitter each person can be called a class and everyone is in the
middle of something except for whoever the two individuals are at the
very top and the very bottom. About the only use such super splitting
will have, though, might be for someone who is studying individual
psychology. If you are studying broad political and economic movements
Depending on your immediate purpose you might sometimes do more
lumping and at other times do more splitting, but when you are
lumping or splitting classes of people there is one thing you have to
be careful about. That is to know what you mean when you refer to any
group and know what you are referring to it for. If you just throw
around vague terms that mean one thing one minute and another thing
another minute, if you call most everyone you run into middle class,
if you do not think clearly about how these groups relate to each
other then you are accomplishing nothing.
On 7/23/2015 3:01 AM, Frank Ventura wrote:
Alice and all, I always had issues with the term "middle class:.
Does that imply it is the middle between the working class and the
ruling class? There are certain groups of people such as doctors
and cops that enjoy certain protections that the working class
does not. Like you said you don't see cops and doctors being
killed in jail cells for not using their turn signal.
Frank
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Alice
Dampman Humel
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2015 9:19 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Bernie Sanders Takes His Populism
to the Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
Doctors and lawyers, unless they're working in the free clinics or
for legal aid are most definitely not considered middle class.the
rest of what you say is an exposee of how you see the world and
can't be argued with for that reason, but that statement about
doctors and lawyers being middle class is inaccurate .just ask the
doctors and lawyers themselves, their patients and clients, their
neighbors, and see what the consensus is...
On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:50 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx <mailto:rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>" for DMARC)
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
Like I have said, when you use a word or phrase to mean
everything it means nothing and when everyone calls themselves
middle class then middle class means nothing too. The trouble
with that phrase, though, is that it never really meant much
in the first place. Literally, I suppose it is somewhere in
between upper and lower, but then you have to specify where
one class ends and another begins and by what criteria you are
doing the measuring. The terms upper and lower don't mean much
either. If you want to talk about classes then to do so with
some kind of real meaning you have to use terms that actually
describe the role of the classes you are talking about in the
economic system you are talking about. With all that said,
though, I will have to admit that I have a very strong
personal distaste for that term middle class. Virtually every
time I have heard the term being used it has been used to
derogate me and the people I associate with by reassuring that
person who is using it that they are better than us. The vast
majority of people I have ever known do not refer to
themselves as part of any class in normal conversation. If the
conversation turns in a direction that they have to call
themselves something they will usually say working people or
poor people. The few who call themselves middle class, though,
do not have to have the conversation turn in a direction such
that they will have to identify their class. They make a point
of telling you that they are middle class to be sure that you
will not mistake them for one of you. Added to that, all of
these obnoxious bourgeois politicians are constantly talking
about what they are going to do for the middle class as if the
vast majority of us do not even exist. When Joe Biden came to
Charleston a whole lot of poor people turned out for his
speech. I know a lot of them. His speech consisted of middle
class this and middle class that through the whole thing. Did
he even have the slightest idea how much he was turning off
his audience. I really did hear at least two people say that
they were convinced that he didn't care a thing about us
because all he cared about was middle class people and in that
context the phrase middle class was used with a bit of a
sneer. Traditionally the phrase middle class refers to the
professional class, that is, doctors, lawyers and the like.
Among most of my acquaintances those people are usually
referred to as rich people, not middle class people. That is,
of course, inaccurate, but it is the term that is used. There
are two neighborhoods in Charleston that mainly consist of
those types. They are South Hills and Edgewood Drive. There
are other such neighborhoods, but it is those two that are
normally referred to by the most of the people I am acquainted
with as snobville or where those rich people live. By the way,
John D. Rockefeller owns a house in South Hills, so I suppose
there really are some rich people there, except that
Rockefeller does not really live there. He only bought the
house to officially maintain a West Virginia residence so that
he could be senator. South Hills was about as low as I think
he would ever be likely to go even if he didn't have to live
there though.
On 7/21/2015 11:23 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
When Carl and Roger talk about this, they ar using a
Marxist framework in
which class definitions are very specific. You are using
the terms in the
way most Americans use them. But it is also true that blue
collar workers
have been referring to themselves as middle class,
probably ever since they
moved to the suburbs, owned one or more cars, and a color
TV. Corporations'
advertising has sold everyone on the fantasy that they are
similar to the
rich which is why so many former Democrats voted for
Reagan. Was it in the
eighties that all these people began taking cruises?
Everyone purchased this
1 week fantasy of opulence. One or two thousand people
crowded onto a ship,
the majority in tiny windowless cabins, with fancy looking
public rooms and
unlimited food of mediocre quality on the less expensive
cruises and now, on
almost all of them, and nightly entertainment. And each
day, they stop at a
port and are shepherded in huge groups to places where
they can buy things.
And they all think they're doing what the rich do.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 10:16 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Bernie Sanders Takes His
Populism to the Red
States and Draws Huge Crowd
I also think there is significant overlap.many working
class people are
also middle class, and conversely, many middle class
people are
simultaneously working class. Socially and economically, I
don't see the two
as mutually exclusive, Under certain circumstances, they
seem to be two
different terms that describe the same thing. Maybe it's a
slant in one
direction or another, and the accusation leveled that many
middle class
people think calling themselves middle class somehow
elevates them above the
people they might call working class and look down on is
certainly true in
some cases, but some people always feel they have to look
down on somebody,
and I don't think this is characteristic of all or even
many denizens of the
middle class . I certainly know and have known in the
past, many so-called
middle class neighborhoods that are populated by people
who hold jobs
considered to be working class, not white collar.
And of course this kind of gray area does not exist
between let's say upper
and working class.
Alice
On Jul 20, 2015, at 3:54 PM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
It may have something to do with the fact that his
background is
working
class. His family was Jewish, working class, and he grew
up in
Brooklyn.
He's a bit younger than I am, but our childhood
experiences are
probably
similar. One doesn't forget that, unless one puts forth a
lot of
effort to
do so.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Roger
Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
<mailto:rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 3:18 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Bernie Sanders Takes His
Populism to
the Red
States and Draws Huge Crowd
There is at least one point in favor of Sanders. He, at
least, gives
lip
service to working people instead of assuming that the
so-called
middle
class is the only class of people worth addressing.
On 7/20/2015 2:33 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Published on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org) Home >
Bernie Sanders
Takes His Populism to the Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
________________________________________
Bernie Sanders Takes His Populism to the Red States and
Draws Huge
Crowd By Zaid Jilani [1] / AlterNet [2] July 19, 2015 Today,
Sanders
took his Southwestern tour to Dallas and Houston. In Dallas,
he spoke
to nearly 10,000 people. The senator condemned the
Democratic Party's
political strategy in the South, saying that it has
"conceded half of
the states in the national level." He said that when
"childhood
poverty in Texas is 27 percent, we've gotta take it on. When
34
percent of people living in Texas have no health insurance,
we've
gotta take it on." The people sitting in the bleachers
behind him took
to their feet to applaud when he said it makes more sense to
invest in
"jobs and education" rather than "incarceration," something
that has
become a feature of his stump speech.
Sanders' speech in Phoenix on Saturday night brought
together an
estimated eleven to twelve thousand people - one of the
largest
political rallies in the city's history (by comparison
Barack Obama
got 13,000 in January 2008 [3]). The crowd gave Sanders
standing
ovations at numerous points, such as when he condemned
police
violence, called for tuition-free college, and demanded that
American
provide for the veterans of its wars. It's worth noting
that, in contrast
to Donald Trump's homogeneous audience, Sanders'
crowd was extremely diverse; there was heavy representation
of young
Latinos, with one activist introducing the Senator before
his speech.
Bernie is campaigning across the Southwest to show he has
broader
appeal than just the safe blue-state regions of the country.
It is an
echo of the swing through the South that Sanders did in
2013, when he
was still considering his candidacy.
"I really strongly disagree with this concept that there's a
blue
state and red state America," he told In These Times in an
interview
that year. "I believe that in every state in the country the
vast
majority of the people are working people. These are people
who are
struggling to keep their heads above water economically,
these are
people who want Social Security defended, they want to raise
the
minimum wage, they want changes in our trade policy. And to
basically
concede significant parts of America, including the South,
to the
right-wing is to me not only stupid politics, but even worse
than
that-you just do not turn your backs on millions and
millions of working
people."
Although the majority of the address in Phoenix was similar
to the
remarks the senator has given around the country, there were
a few
innovations. "God bless Pope Francis," he joked. "Some
people think my
economic views are radical, you should check out this guy."
He also
ended his address on a note of optimism, pointing out that
while some
may say this country can never have truly universal health
care, this
is the same country that in the span of two and a half
years
successfully defeated both the Germans and Japanese in the
Second World
War.
Watch the video of Sanders' address below:
In Houston, Taylor Channing, a 25 year-old from Houston who
has been
volunteering with his local Bernie Sanders group, was
thrilled by Sanders'
visit.
"It's funny because whenever I found out the other day that
he was
coming to Houston, I mean it freaked out we weren't
expecting such a
gift or such an early visit to one of the reddest states in
the
nation," he exclaimed. "I've never seen such a response
to a
progressive campaign in my lifetime. I thought the response
I saw to
Obama was huge but this is just, I mean it's just, it's
insane."
For Channing, this Southwestern tour is a sending a message
to the
entire country about the Bernie Sanders' attitude towards
politics. In
his mind, Sanders is saying "I have no druthers about
showing up in
what is perceived to be a conservative bastion and just
being who I am
and seeing how the people respond."
By the looks of the response in Phoenix and the expected
response in
Texas Sunday evening, this strategy is working.
Zaid Jilani is an AlterNet staff writer. Follow @zaidjilani
[4] on
Twitter.
Share on Facebook Share
Share on Twitter Tweet
Report typos and corrections to 'corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx>'.
[5]
[6]
________________________________________
Source URL:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-takes-his-populis
m-red-
states-and-draws-huge-crowd
Links:
[1] http://www.alternet.org/authors/zaid-jilani-0
<http://www.alternet.org/authors/zaid-jilani-0>
[2] http://alternet.org <http://alternet.org>
[3]
http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2008/01/31/75657-obama-rally-draws-13-
000-in
-phx/
[4] https://twitter.com/zaidjilani
<https://twitter.com/zaidjilani>
[5] mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo
<mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo> on Bernie
Sanders
Takes His Populism to the Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
[6]
http://www.alternet.org/ [7]
http://www.alternet.org/%2Bnew_src%2B
Published on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org) Home >
Bernie Sanders
Takes His Populism to the Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
Bernie Sanders Takes His Populism to the Red States and
Draws Huge
Crowd By Zaid Jilani [1] / AlterNet [2] July 19, 2015 Today,
Sanders
took his Southwestern tour to Dallas and Houston. In Dallas,
he spoke
to nearly 10,000 people. The senator condemned the
Democratic Party's
political strategy in the South, saying that it has
"conceded half of
the states in the national level." He said that when
"childhood
poverty in Texas is 27 percent, we've gotta take it on. When
34
percent of people living in Texas have no health insurance,
we've
gotta take it on." The people sitting in the bleachers
behind him took
to their feet to applaud when he said it makes more sense to
invest in
"jobs and education" rather than "incarceration," something
that has
become a feature of his stump speech.
Sanders' speech in Phoenix on Saturday night brought
together an
estimated eleven to twelve thousand people - one of the
largest
political rallies in the city's history (by comparison
Barack Obama
got 13,000 in January 2008 [3]). The crowd gave Sanders
standing
ovations at numerous points, such as when he condemned
police
violence, called for tuition-free college, and demanded that
American
provide for the veterans of its wars. It's worth noting
that, in contrast
to Donald Trump's homogeneous audience, Sanders'
crowd was extremely diverse; there was heavy representation
of young
Latinos, with one activist introducing the Senator before
his speech.
Bernie is campaigning across the Southwest to show he has
broader
appeal than just the safe blue-state regions of the country.
It is an
echo of the swing through the South that Sanders did in
2013, when he
was still considering his candidacy.
"I really strongly disagree with this concept that there's a
blue
state and red state America," he told In These Times in an
interview
that year. "I believe that in every state in the country the
vast
majority of the people are working people. These are people
who are
struggling to keep their heads above water economically,
these are
people who want Social Security defended, they want to raise
the
minimum wage, they want changes in our trade policy. And to
basically
concede significant parts of America, including the South,
to the
right-wing is to me not only stupid politics, but even worse
than
that-you just do not turn your backs on millions and
millions of working
people."
Although the majority of the address in Phoenix was similar
to the
remarks the senator has given around the country, there were
a few
innovations. "God bless Pope Francis," he joked. "Some
people think my
economic views are radical, you should check out this guy."
He also
ended his address on a note of optimism, pointing out that
while some
may say this country can never have truly universal health
care, this
is the same country that in the span of two and a half
years
successfully defeated both the Germans and Japanese in the
Second World
War.
Watch the video of Sanders' address below:
In Houston, Taylor Channing, a 25 year-old from Houston who
has been
volunteering with his local Bernie Sanders group, was
thrilled by Sanders'
visit.
"It's funny because whenever I found out the other day that
he was
coming to Houston, I mean it freaked out we weren't
expecting such a
gift or such an early visit to one of the reddest states in
the
nation," he exclaimed. "I've never seen such a response
to a
progressive campaign in my lifetime. I thought the response
I saw to
Obama was huge but this is just, I mean it's just, it's
insane."
For Channing, this Southwestern tour is a sending a message
to the
entire country about the Bernie Sanders' attitude towards
politics. In
his mind, Sanders is saying "I have no druthers about
showing up in
what is perceived to be a conservative bastion and just
being who I am
and seeing how the people respond."
By the looks of the response in Phoenix and the expected
response in
Texas Sunday evening, this strategy is working.
Zaid Jilani is an AlterNet staff writer. Follow @zaidjilani
[4] on
Twitter.
Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.
Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.
Report typos and corrections to 'corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx>'.
[5] Error!
Hyperlink reference not valid.[6]
Source URL:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-takes-his-populis
m-red-
states-and-draws-huge-crowd
Links:
[1] http://www.alternet.org/authors/zaid-jilani-0
<http://www.alternet.org/authors/zaid-jilani-0>
[2] http://alternet.org <http://alternet.org>
[3]
http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2008/01/31/75657-obama-rally-draws-13-
000-in
-phx/
[4] https://twitter.com/zaidjilani
<https://twitter.com/zaidjilani>
[5] mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo
<mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo> on Bernie
Sanders
Takes His Populism to the Red States and Draws Huge Crowd
[6]
http://www.alternet.org/ [7]
http://www.alternet.org/%2Bnew_src%2B
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