As far as blank lines in brf files go, from the half-dozen books I have downloaded so far, it appears that they have all been eliminated. I downloaded a couple I submitted or validated to see what they would look like, so I know where I put them in - after page numbers, and they are all munched. I would imagine that if there were no blank line between page numbers and the first paragraph, the brf file would still look the same - as long as there is a hard return between the two. But if what Gerald says is true, then it is better to put them in than leave them out, even though the brf file would probably still look the same. I could be wrong about the brf file looking the same, though, as I don't really know from the inside what that stripper is programmed to do with page breaks followed by page numbers, but it appears that the brf files I have seen are solely governed by the presence or absence of hard returns, and if so it wouldn't matter if the blank lines were there or not, so long as the hard return is there. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Hovas To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 6:58 PM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and chapter headings Grace, I think the operative word here is impression. Others have stated that the header MUST be the first line and the footer the last, but that isn't what the instructions state, and it isn't what I have found to be true. The instructions do not say that the header must be the first line, they say that they should be the first paragraph. They also say that the footer should be the last paragraph, not the last line. The Stripper doesn't seem to have a problem with either since the header will be the first paragraph and the footer the last no matter if blank lines are included or not. The reason why I recommend placing a blank line at the top and bottom of the page has to do with the quality of the HTML file, and possibly the BRF file. In both instances, the page numbers are added back to the file after being stripped for the DAISY book. I'm not a Braille user, so I can't say what affect the blank lines have on the BRF file, but I have tried both ways and noticed a problem with the HTML file when they aren't included. When they're included, the page numbers in the HTML file are separated from the text by a blank line, when they aren't included, then the page numbers appear on the same line as part of the text, either at the beginning of the first paragraph of text or at the end of the last paragraph of text. I've spoken to Engineering about the problem which occurs when the blank lines are left out and asked them to fix it. Since as I said, it doesn't seem to matter to the Stripper, I personally think it's better to include them for now so that the HTML files look better. HTH Gerald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Silvara Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:12 PM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and chapter headings Hi: Just a slight comment on page numbers. I was under the impression that there should not be a blank line between the page break and the page number. Meaning the that the page number should be the first item on the page followed by a blank line and then the text. Has this changed? As for footers which is page numbers at the bottom of the page I believe it's suppose to be text, followed by a blank line, page number, and blank line and then page break. This is what I have been doing with both validations and submissions. I strip all headers and just leave in page numbers. If anyone is interested in protecting chapter headers I posted a tip on Jake's site. Please let me know if it's clear enough. Or I should add examples to clarify my point. I feel that it is really important to protect chapter titles so please let me know if I can help. *** Grace For scanning and validating tips check out http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/tl.asp For ideas of books to scan check out: the No Book Left Behind AKA Reject list http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/reject.asp Rescan List http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/rescan.asp ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Smith To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings Thanks Gerald. This is great. Now I can go forth and make good scans for all. <smile> Peace and Hope, Donna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerald Hovas Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 9:35 AM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings Donna, 1. The page numbers are what the Stripper is looking for. That's it's primary job, to recognize and process page numbers. Stripping the text that it finds along with them was just something that the Engineer decided to throw in for a bonus. The page numbers are stripped and stored in the SMIL file according to the DAISY specification. DAISY readers use this information to navigate through the book. The page numbers are put back in the BRF and HTML files when those files are created. 2. Sorry about the periods. They're just a kind of vertical ellipses to signify that something's there. Just a way to make the text part take up more room. Ignore them. HTH Gerald ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Donna Smith Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:20 AM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings Gerald, this is great information. Two more questions if you don't mind. 1.. So if I manually strip all headers, put a blank line then the page number and then another blank line, the BookShare stripper won't then strip the page number as the closest thing resembling a header? 2.. I hope I'm not just being too obtuse, but in your examples, do you mean that I should put in the three lines with a period separated by a blank line? What's the purpose of this? Thanks. Donna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerald Hovas Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 7:19 PM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter headings Donna, 1.. Yes, put a blank line before and after the page number when the page number is in the header as well as a blank line at the bottom of the page. I'm not sure if the blank line is necessary between the page number and the text, but I can say that putting one after the header does work well. If you leave the blank lines at the top and bottom of the pages off, then some odd things will happen to the page numbers when the HTML file is created. The page numbers end up as part of a paragraph instead of on a separate line. Example of how the page should look... [Page Break] 95 . . . text . . . [Page Break] 2.. Yes, put a blank line between the chapter heading and the first line of text. Again, I don't know that this is necessary, but it does work well, and some people have said that it is necessary. 3. Yes, you need to give the Stripper something to strip other than the chapter heading or the chapter heading will be stripped. The easiest thing to do when page numbers are normally at the top of pages except on pages where a chapter begins is to move the page number from the bottom of the page to the top. If page numbers are always at the bottom of the page, then place a false header above the chapter heading. Using the title works well, and it won't look as odd if the Stripper fails to strip it for some odd reason. It helps to strip all of the real headers manually since its easier to strip them yourself than to insure that they are consistent so that the Stripper will remove them all, but if you do leave them in, then just follow the pattern of the headers and put whatever header would normally appear on the top of that page above the chapter heading. Examples of how pages should look... [Page Break] 95 Chapter Seven . . . text . . . [Page Break] [Page Break] The Firm Chapter Seven . . . text . . . 95 [Page Break] Or if the page would normally contain the author's name instead of the title... [Page Break] John Grisham Chapter Seven . . . text . . . [Page Break] I can't say that these are the only ways to do it, but I've had excellent results with these approaches. HTH Gerald ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Donna Smith Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 5:41 PM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Protecting page numbers and chapter headings Hi all. I hesitate to ask this question, but I can't find the answer on any of the official or unofficial sites giving tips to scanners. Did we ever determine absolutely what should be done to protect page numbers and chapter headings? What I want to know is: 1.. At the top of each page, do I need to put a blank line before and/or after the page number? 2.. For chapter numbers/titles that appear at the top of the page, do I put a blank line before and/or after it? 3.. Is it necessary to have something at the top of the page for the BookShare stripper to strip? I spend a good bit of time cleaning up each scan regarding page numbers, chapter headings and stripping out unwanted headers. I'm trying to do it in such a way that it will result in the best book in the finished product. I really, really hope that an answer has been found to this question and that I'm not opening up the can of worms we've had before about the different perceptions of what might work. <smile> Thanks. Peace and Hope, Donna