[bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and chapter headings

  • From: "Jill O'Connell" <jillocon@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:24:28 -0700

Thank you Evan. That's exactly what I have been finding in the new BRF books. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Evan Reese 
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:29 AM
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and chapter 
headings


  Well, you could try "Schismatrix Plus" by Bruce Sterling.  The copy I have 
has the title at the top, then the author's name, then five more repetitions of 
the title before the legal notices - just as the other example I gave did.
    I submitted this book, and I'm quite sure - especially as I have the 
original .rtf file I submitted - that the title isn't repeated six times in the 
original, only twice; once on a title page, and a second time immediately 
afterword on a page containing the title and author's name.  How the extra four 
got in there I have no idea.

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Pratik patel 
    To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 10:12 PM
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and 
chapter headings


    I'll certainly check that one.  I'd rather have more titles to compare 
though.  So, folks, please send me more titles that might have this problem.

    Pratik





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    From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jill O'Connell
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 6:09 PM
    To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and 
chapter headings


    If you don't hear from someone else, if memory serves I believe that Cane 
River was one such book. 
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Pratik Patel 
      To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 10:34 AM
      Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and 
chapter headings


      if someone might please give me possible titles, I will check on this 
problem and report back.

      Pratik





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      From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerald Hovas
      Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 12:27 PM
      To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and 
chapter headings


      Thanks for the info.  As I said, I'm not really a Braille user, and it's 
been 20 years since I did any Braille translation using Duxbury, so I haven't 
tried downloading any of the books to see what the format of the files look 
like.

       

      BTW, it's likely that there wouldn't be any problem with the page numbers 
in the BRF books due to the recent upgrade to support print page numbers.  
Although from what Jill said, it sounds like a bug may have sneaked in related 
to repeated lines when they did the work on it at the end of last year.

       

      Gerald

       


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      From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
      Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 5:02 AM
      To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and 
chapter headings

       

      As far as blank lines in brf files go, from the half-dozen books I have 
downloaded so far, it appears that they have all been eliminated.  I downloaded 
a couple I submitted or validated to see what they would look like, so I know 
where I put them in - after page numbers, and they are all munched.  I would 
imagine that if there were no blank line between page numbers and the first 
paragraph, the brf file would still look the same - as long as there is a hard 
return between the two.  But if what Gerald says is true, then it is better to 
put them in than leave them out, even though the brf file would probably still 
look the same.  I could be wrong about the brf file looking the same, though, 
as I don't really know from the inside what that stripper is programmed to do 
with page breaks followed by page numbers, but it appears that the brf files I 
have seen are solely governed by the presence or absence of hard returns, and 
if so it wouldn't matter if the blank lines were there or not, so long as the 
hard return is there.

       

        ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: Gerald Hovas 

        To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

        Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 6:58 PM

        Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and 
chapter headings

         

        Grace,

         

        I think the operative word here is impression.  Others have stated that 
the header MUST be the first line and the footer the last, but that isn't what 
the instructions state, and it isn't what I have found to be true.  The 
instructions do not say that the header must be the first line, they say that 
they should be the first paragraph.  They also say that the footer should be 
the last paragraph, not the last line.  The Stripper doesn't seem to have a 
problem with either since the header will be the first paragraph and the footer 
the last no matter if blank lines are included or not.

         

        The reason why I recommend placing a blank line at the top and bottom 
of the page has to do with the quality of the HTML file, and possibly the BRF 
file.  In both instances, the page numbers are added back to the file after 
being stripped for the DAISY book.  I'm not a Braille user, so I can't say what 
affect the blank lines have on the BRF file, but I have tried both ways and 
noticed a problem with the HTML file when they aren't included.  When they're 
included, the page numbers in the HTML file are separated from the text by a 
blank line, when they aren't included, then the page numbers appear on the same 
line as part of the text, either at the beginning of the first paragraph of 
text or at the end of the last paragraph of text.

         

        I've spoken to Engineering about the problem which occurs when the 
blank lines are left out and asked them to fix it.

         

        Since as I said, it doesn't seem to matter to the Stripper, I 
personally think it's better to include them for now so that the HTML files 
look better.

         

        HTH

         

        Gerald

         


------------------------------------------------------------------------

        From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Silvara
        Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:12 PM
        To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: comment on Protecting page numbers and 
chapter headings

         

        Hi:

         

        Just a slight comment on page numbers. I was under the impression that 
there should not be a blank line between the page break and the page number. 
Meaning the that the page number should be the first item on the page followed 
by a blank line and then the text. Has this changed?

         

        As for footers which is page numbers at the bottom of the page I 
believe it's suppose to be text, followed by a blank line, page number, and 
blank line and then page break. This is what I have been doing with both 
validations and submissions. I strip all headers and just leave in page 
numbers.  

         

            If anyone is interested in protecting chapter headers I posted a 
tip on Jake's site. Please let me know if it's clear enough. Or I should add 
examples to clarify my point. I feel that it is really important to protect 
chapter titles so please let me know if I can help.

         

        ***
        Grace

         

        For scanning and validating  tips 
        check out 
        http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/tl.asp 

         

        For ideas of books to scan check out:
        the No Book Left Behind AKA 
        Reject list 
        http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/reject.asp
        Rescan List
        http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/rescan.asp   

          ----- Original Message ----- 

          From: Donna Smith 

          To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

          Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:17 PM

          Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter 
headings

           

          Thanks Gerald.  This is great.  Now I can go forth and make good 
scans for all.  <smile>

           

          Peace and Hope,

           

          Donna

           


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          From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerald Hovas
          Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 9:35 AM
          To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
          Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter 
headings

           

          Donna,

           

          1. The page numbers are what the Stripper is looking for.  That's 
it's primary job, to recognize and process page numbers.  Stripping the text 
that it finds along with them was just something that the Engineer decided to 
throw in for a bonus.  The page numbers are stripped and stored in the SMIL 
file according to the DAISY specification.  DAISY readers use this information 
to navigate through the book.  The page numbers are put back in the BRF and 
HTML files when those files are created.

           

          2. Sorry about the periods.  They're just a kind of vertical ellipses 
to signify that something's there.  Just a way to make the text part take up 
more room.  Ignore them.

           

          HTH

           

          Gerald

           


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          From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Donna Smith
          Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:20 AM
          To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
          Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter 
headings

           

          Gerald, this is great information.

           

          Two more questions if you don't mind.

           

            1.. So if I manually strip all headers, put a blank line then the 
page number and then another blank line, the BookShare stripper won't then 
strip the page number as the closest thing resembling a header? 
            2.. I hope I'm not just being too obtuse, but in your examples, do 
you mean that I should put in the three lines with a period separated by a 
blank line?  What's the purpose of this? 
           

          Thanks.

           

          Donna

           


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          From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerald Hovas
          Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 7:19 PM
          To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
          Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Protecting page numbers and chapter 
headings

           

          Donna,

           

            1.. Yes, put a blank line before and after the page number when the 
page number is in the header as well as a blank line at the bottom of the page. 
 I'm not sure if the blank line is necessary between the page number and the 
text, but I can say that putting one after the header does work well.  If you 
leave the blank lines at the top and bottom of the pages off, then some odd 
things will happen to the page numbers when the HTML file is created.  The page 
numbers end up as part of a paragraph instead of on a separate line. 
           

          Example of how the page should look...

           

          [Page Break]

           

          95

           

          .

          .

          .

          text

          .

          .

          .

           

          [Page Break]

           

            2.. Yes, put a blank line between the chapter heading and the first 
line of text.  Again, I don't know that this is necessary, but it does work 
well, and some people have said that it is necessary. 
           

          3. Yes, you need to give the Stripper something to strip other than 
the chapter heading or the chapter heading will be stripped.  The easiest thing 
to do when page numbers are normally at the top of pages except on pages where 
a chapter begins is to move the page number from the bottom of the page to the 
top.  If page numbers are always at the bottom of the page, then place a false 
header above the chapter heading.  Using the title works well, and it won't 
look as odd if the Stripper fails to strip it for some odd reason.  It helps to 
strip all of the real headers manually since its easier to strip them yourself 
than to insure that they are consistent so that the Stripper will remove them 
all, but if you do leave them in, then just follow the pattern of the headers 
and put whatever header would normally appear on the top of that page above the 
chapter heading.

           

          Examples of how pages should look...

           

          [Page Break]

           

          95

           

          Chapter Seven

           

          .

          .

          .

          text

          .

          .

          .

           

          [Page Break]

           

          [Page Break]

           

          The Firm

           

          Chapter Seven

           

          .

          .

          .

          text

          .

          .

          .

           

          95

           

          [Page Break]

           

          Or if the page would normally contain the author's name instead of 
the title...

           

          [Page Break]

           

          John Grisham

           

          Chapter Seven

           

          .

          .

          .

          text

          .

          .

          .

           

          [Page Break]

           

          I can't say that these are the only ways to do it, but I've had 
excellent results with these approaches.

           

          HTH

           

          Gerald

           


----------------------------------------------------------------------

          From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Donna Smith
          Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 5:41 PM
          To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
          Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Protecting page numbers and chapter headings

           

          Hi all.

           

          I hesitate to ask this question, but I can't find the answer on any 
of the official or unofficial sites giving tips to scanners.

           

          Did we ever determine absolutely what should be done to protect page 
numbers and chapter headings?  What I want to know is:

           

            1.. At the top of each page, do I need to put a blank line before 
and/or after the page number? 
            2.. For chapter numbers/titles that appear at the top of the page, 
do I put a blank line before and/or after it? 
            3.. Is it necessary to have something at the top of the page for 
the BookShare stripper to strip? 
           

          I spend a good bit of time cleaning up each scan regarding page 
numbers, chapter headings and stripping out unwanted headers.  I'm trying to do 
it in such a way that it will result in the best book in the finished product.

           

          I really, really hope that an answer has been found to this question 
and that I'm not opening up the can of worms we've had before about the 
different perceptions of what might work.  <smile>

           

          Thanks.

           

          Peace and Hope,

           

          Donna



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