Cayuse wrote: >BruceD wrote: >>I'm trying to make sense of this. This is what I get. We agree that we >>have experience. We agree that we experience ourselves as an >>experiencer. But since our experience of ourselves is part of our >>experience then there is way to tease apart the R from the E. >If I use the word "experience" to refer to a skill acquired through >practise (e.g. "machine tool operator required, experience essential") >then I agree with Strawson that "There cannot be experience without a >subject of experience because experience is necessarily for someone or >something --- an experiencer or subject of experience". However, when >discussing the philosophical problem of consciousness I'm not using the >word in that manner, and judging by Strawson's writings I doubt very >much that he is either. This leads me to suspect that he is being >misled by language (confusion of language games). >Certainly the *ideas* of experiencer, experienced, and experiencing >stand in mutual relationship and interdependence, just as do the >*ideas* of deceiver, and deceived, and deception. When we talk about >experience as something gained through the practising of a new skill, >then this mutual relationship and interdependence hold up I agree that these ideas stand in mutual relation; and, that you've given a good example of one situation in which the reality corresponds to this set of ideas. however, you've not explained why this set of inter-related ideas is not applicable to the experience of seeing an afterimage. there is a certain amount of skill involved in inducing an afterimage; and, it takes a bit of practice to learn this skill. if I can say that I am the subject of experience when claiming to have experience learning and exercising the skill of inducing an afterimage; then, I should be able to say that I am the experiencer of the afterimage. after all is said and done, if I am unable to say that I am the experiencer of the afterimages that I induce, I would have no basis for saying that I am experienced in the skill of inducing afterimages; or, that I am the experiencer of my experience in the skill of inducing afterimages. Joe -- Nothing Unreal is Self-Aware @^@~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@^@ http://what-am-i.net @^@~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@^@ ========================================== Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/