The bottom line is you have to engineer the Human error aspect out of any
device and James and Cliff are right, I worked in Manufacturing and processing
for 23 years so I was over the top and always followed my sequence which was to
never have anything connected to power until I was at least far away enough
that when I did connect to power if by any remote chance it would go off I
would not be hurt, back when Plaster Blaster was popular I was always in the
intense drag races where we did 24 M’s and I had a BlackSky Alt2A and a 2C
because they were the cool altimeters at the time, because of the El Centro
heat index of 117 and about 200 inside the rocket when I armed my electronics
all of my BP charges went off in my face and ear and I was lucky nothing was
missing from my body, that was my extra wake up call to never let my guard down
again no matter what the situation was ever again. I was also there at LDRS
when the Helicopter had to take the girl out when a big project was lowered
with all the timers and electronics armed and burned her bad, plus the guy who
had 4 skin graft surgeries on his burns, Tripoli settled the law suit, up in
Washington when a rocket came down and hit a man, our very own Rob Diel at
BALLS was next to me and we had a sand storm so everyone was riding it out in
there RV’s when I hear a BOOM!!!!! A bad Raven blew when he armed it inside his
RV, I can go on and on but it happens more than we expect and we can solve 99%
by just being cautious every time and take the Human error out of it ourselves.
James I will call you I have talked to Frank it is not all his fault but
regardless, I may have the engineering answer you need.
Jack
From: tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of James Dougherty
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 5:52 PM
To: TCC chat
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: wireless Launcher
if you didn't know how to work the unit, connected the igniter leads, and then
turned the receiver unit on, I wouldn't expect it to light the igniter!
Let's say you bought the unit from someone, didn't have the manual or lost it,
and of course you couldn't find the website since that is now taken down.
You would do what a normal user does and connect the leads and then turn it on
- bang - your dead.
And if there is a factory issue like that, you don't write about how it will
misfire in the manual - you don't sell shit like that.
No wonder he doesn't sell them anymore, that lollygagging schlongster is
probably the subject matter of one or more lawsuits.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Jack Garibaldi <jackgaribaldi@xxxxxxx> wrote:
That's because I got skills :)
Jack
Sent from a Mil-Spec IPhone 6 Plus
On Jul 6, 2015, at 4:48 PM, Jimmy Franco <Aldocyber3@xxxxxxx> wrote:
We used Jack’s system like this one a couple of years ago.
I don’t remember having any issues with that one at that time.
We did about 25 - 30 flights that day.
Jimmy F.
TRA 12524
From: James Dougherty <mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 4:13 PM
To: TCC chat <mailto:tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: wireless Launcher
And then taking down his website and acting like he's washed his hands of it
... gee, thanks for helping the hobby.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:12 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Lets get that loser Frank to explain why he's killing children with his launch
controller.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Jack Garibaldi <jackgaribaldi@xxxxxxx> wrote:
I think James got drunk and was running around with his Schlong Out
Jack
From: tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of James Dougherty
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 3:06 PM
To: TCC chat
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: wireless Launcher
Yeah, Dennis, we had a long talk about that one too - the flag dragging, the
nudist cyclists, the druggies high on LSD who showed up to "watch the pretty
rockets"
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Dennis Yeh <dennismyeh@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
This weekend did have some pretty insane circumstances... I talked to her and
it seems like she had fun though, despite all the BS!
I'm hoping she didn't see the nudists - that was pretty disgusting
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 2:51 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
My daughter was at her first BR launch this weekend and I can't tell you the
nightmares this whole thing has provided.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 2:50 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
:-)
Yes, we talked about that too.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Eric Renger <ericrenger@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
For the record, I am not butt-hurt by Cliff's response. In a way, he proves my
point that people make mistakes reading or actually don't read everything
thoroughly, so you can't rely on a manual to make an inherently unsafe thing
safe.
On Jul 6, 2015, at 2:38 PM, James Dougherty wrote:
hey guys
Look, this is a serious issue - a product like this shouldn't even be on the
market, Cliff got pissed and didn't read through the email and i am sure he
apologizes.
There are so many levels of wrong about this Rockcontroller I'm not even going
to go into right now ... I like to get all of my facts straight about the
situation and
I need to talk to Frank about this before I do anything about it - but I will
be doing something about it - as far as I'm concerned, this unit shouldn't even
be on the
market.
Those of you guys who know me know that safety is a big thing for me, this is
why I went out and helped invest in the club launch system because A) I know
the
guy who designed the system and he is solid electrical engineer (Ron McGough -
Blackdog Rocketry), B) it needs to be rock-solid as if your life depended on it
(it does) and C) I reviewed the circuitry and schematics for the continuity
check and relay circuit myself - it's physically impossible for this to fail
unless there
is a mechanical failure.
let me get the data together and we'll decide to do what's next ... what really
pissed me off the most right now is that there is no online site for it:
<image.png>
And no, I shouldn't have to google to find a point of contact for a device like
this.
But the same guy is out selling his "Tiltometer" and from what I can tell it
was put together with bubble-gum and bailing wireas well.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Eric Renger <ericrenger@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Cliff, if you're being ironic, you need to put one of those winky smiley faces
in your post!
If not being ironic, you need to reread my post. I am totally in agreement with
you. The design is unsafe, and you can't expect a manual to make it OK. That
was my point.
On Jul 6, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Cliff Sojourner wrote:
Eric, shut up, go to Hell.
There is no reasonable expectation for users to read a manual that isn't at the
pad and there isn't any reason to expect them to understand it in 107 degrees
heat.
Launch control wiring has been the same for more than 60 years. Users do not
expect live wires. Ever.
This is a complete hazard and unacceptable risk to destroy the rocketry
community. Such a simple thing. Unnecessary.
I will protect my family and friends. My friends are the entire rocketry
community.
On July 6, 2015 11:41:16 AM MST, Eric Renger <ericrenger@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It sounds like there is potential for user error.
RTFM is always a good policy, but as a person who used to write a lot of M's,
we know that not everyone will R T F'ing things. Generally, the best policy is
if the design will save the user from making mistakes if at all possible, not
the manual! In certain situations, I used to tell developers, "You can't save
this design with documentation. You need to fix the design and save users from
themselves."
The danger I see is that if a person is unfamiliar with the design and
procedures, and they assume there is NO WAY it can light the igniter unless
someone is actually pushing the button (or an equipment malfunction), then it
could result in disaster. If the design is such that after one launch, the
system is not automatically safe to hook up the next bird without removing
leads or some other steps to make it safe, there is a potential to forget. Or
there is a potential f or one group to leave the equipment unsafe for the next
group.
Of course, I'm saying all this without having ever seen this equipment and not
even a good familiarity with the usual club equipment, and i don't know what
kinds of procedures you had in place. It just sounds like the system can
accidentally be left in an unsafe state.
Eric
On Jul 6, 2015, at 11:05 AM, James Dougherty wrote:
Thanks Jack,
Yes, this is the correct sequence to make it work and what we did all weekend.
If you want to kill yourself, here is what you do:
1) Don't remove the safety interlock on the transmitter
2) Leave the alligator leads connec ted to the Receiver, connect igniter leads
to motor
3) Turn on the Receiver - it will make a beep beep beep and then you'll hear
the igniter pop and the rocket motor light
And the unit will turn on and fire the rocket if you do this.
This happened twice - once when Mike and I launched a Mad-Dog and once when
Dennis/Aidan were flying.
I spoke with them, showed them the above steps (which ARE in the manual) and we
never had an issue.
Clear example where you need to Read The F***in manual (RTFM) :-)
-James
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:49 AM, Jack Garibaldi <jackgaribaldi@xxxxxxx> wrote:
James
Your sequence must be wrong if you are lighting igniters/rockets without
pushing any buttons
1. When you hook up igniter clips this wire should not be plugged into the
relay module
2. When you hook up relay module plug, your wireless relay module should
be off and the safety clip out
3. Now when you turn on Blue unit safet y clip is out now put in safety
clip
4. If unit now goes off no one is by the rocket and you have a an issue
with unit
5. Unit will not turn on unless this sequence is followed
Jack
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
--
Dennis Yeh
University of California, Los Angeles
B.S. Aerospace Engineering, 2015
