Peter, Given the reality that neither the controller nor the SDRAM are point devices, but occupy real area and have non-zero dimensions, then at least one of the traces in the interface must have non-zero minimum length. The max(min-length) will be the max of the Manhattan distances between the appropriate pin on the controller and the corresponding pin on the SDRAM. Given the existence of one non-zero length trace, what constraints on the remaining trace lengths maximizes the total setup + hold margin? (Hint: It isn't zero.) I suggest that you stop insisting and start analyzing. Regards Mike peter zhu wrote: > James: > > I still insist my point that the shortest trace has no problem in both setup > and hold time when considered SDR SDRAM. > > Assume that the data trace is ZERO, and the SDRAM controller and SDRAM chip > is clocked by the same external clock, Because is data trace is ZERO, and no > any data delay, so the timing at the receiver is JUST the timing in SDRAM > controller or SDRAM chip datasheet.that certainly meet the input > requirement. > > Regards > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peterson, James F (FL51)" <james.f.peterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <peter.zhu@xxxxxxxxxx>; <crjohnson11@xxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 9:18 PM > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SDRAM timing > > > >>Peter, >>In response to your point in your last paragraph (two devices that > > interface > >>with each other and have the same external clock with the same phase) : >> >>The longest trace is important only in the setup time analysis. >> >>But as was mentioned earlier, the shortest trace is key in the hold time >>analysis. Take a look at terms in the classic equation for hold time >>analysis and you will see that the minimum trace delay is a critical term > > in > >>that equation. If you don't include this, then you could have > > metastability > >>issues because of hold time violations. It is often the case that the > > trace > >>needs to be lengthened to meet hold time needs. >> >>Best regards, >>Jim >>Honeywell >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > On > >>Behalf Of peter zhu >>Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:30 AM >>To: crjohnson11@xxxxxxxxxxx >>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SDRAM timing >> >>Johnson: >> >>Thanks for your explaination.. In your mail, maintaining the equal lenth > > in > >>data bus is for a optimum point. >>But you know, for some SDR SDRAM controller, the clock is from SDRAM >>controller, we can not adjunt the clock forward. In fact, majority of SDR >>SDRAM clock scheme is as such. >>In such situation, I think the timing is only determined by the longest > > data > >>trace, and the shorter the better. Do you aggree with me? >> >>Thinking about another clocking scheme in SDR SDRAM. The SDRAM controller >>and SDRAM is clocked by the same external clock with same phase. In this >>situation, I also think the timing is only determined by the longest > > trace, > >>and the shorter the better. >> >>Regards >> >>Peter >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Christopher R. Johnson" <crjohnson11@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>To: <peter.zhu@xxxxxxxxxx> >>Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:20 PM >>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SDRAM timing >> >> >> >>>If you have zero skew (all lines the same length), then there is some >>>optimum point at which you can place your clock to give the best setup > > and > >>>hold for all signals. Once you introduce skew between any of the > > signals, > >>>from trace length, different output prop delays, different receiver >>>thresholds, clock jitter, etc. you no longer have a single point in the >>>cycle which is best for all signals. Your best point is now fuzzed out > > to > >>a >> >>>band of different best points across all of the signals. The best you > > can > >>>do is minimize the difference between the individual best clock > > placements > >>>and the actual clock placement. To do this, you place your clock midway >>>between the best placement for slowest and fastest signals. The point > > at > >>>which the "fuzzed out" clock placement equals the system clock is the >>>fastest that you can go. >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "peter zhu" <peter.zhu@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>To: <bmgman@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 7:26 AM >>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SDRAM timing >>> >>> >>> >>>>Mike and all: >>>> >>>>I think the setup and hold time is not a problem in shortest data bus. >>>>Assume that the length of data bus is ZERO, because no any data bus >> >>delay, >> >>>>so the timing will be just the timing in SDRAM or SDRAM controller >>>>datasheet!!! It's perfect! >>>>So I think the shorter, the better. >>>>Can anybody explain it? Do we really need to maintain the almost same >>> >>>length >>> >>>>in SDRAM data bus? >>>> >>>>Thanks in advanced. >>>> >>>>Peter >>> >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>> >>>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>> >>>For help: >>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>> >>>List FAQ wiki page is located at: >>> http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ >>> >>>List technical documents are available at: >>> http://www.si-list.org >>> >>>List archives are viewable at: >>>//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>>or at our remote archives: >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>> >>> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>To unsubscribe from si-list: >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >>For help: >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >>List FAQ wiki page is located at: >> http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ >> >>List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.org >> >>List archives are viewable at: >>//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>or at our remote archives: >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>To unsubscribe from si-list: >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >>For help: >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >>List FAQ wiki page is located at: >> http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ >> >>List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.org >> >>List archives are viewable at: >>//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>or at our remote archives: >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu