[SI-LIST] Re: Insertion Loss of Passive Components
- From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <arpad.muranyi@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:08:13 -0800
Hello Everyone,
This "argument" about filter or not, SI engineer or RF
engineer all boils down to a basic communication problem,
which is forgetting to state what the assumptions are
behind the various statements. Please do not forget that
most RF problems deal with steady-state analysis, which
is quite different from transient analysis SI engineers
are mostly concerned about. (This is changing, though,
because more and more SI people are starting to use
frequency domain techniques also).
Anyway, a T-line can be viewed as many different things,
but these "equivalents" will only hold under certain
circumstances. Yes, you can make it look like an open or
short using a certain length and a corresponding everlasting
(steady state) sinusoidal single frequency (or narrow band)
source, but the same analysis may fall apart for a step
function which is wide band and occurs at random or
infrequent intervals.
So before getting into each other's hair on whether it is
a filter or not, please define your assumptions and analysis
techniques to get on the same page...
Arpad
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =
On Behalf Of agathon
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 2:12 PM
To: ryan.satrom@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Insertion Loss of Passive Components
Ryan,
I would submit that it really ought to help. And, sorry, but please =
don't
claim that for SI Engineers in general. :-)
All the laws of physics rule, not just some.
The net IS a filter. And, if the section (170mil) is electrically =
short,
then lumped "filter" modeling could be a perfectly appropriate way to
understand and accurately model its interaction with the rest of the =
net.
It is a well known technique in any college microwave advanced text. In
that case, the "propagation" is irrelevant and, if resonance is at work, =
the
variable t, for time, itself is irrelevant. So, time to understand
filters.
On the other hand, I didn't read any convincing explanation of a =
"resonance"
on a bare diff pair with mismatched conductor lengths. Most likely, the
higher loss of the pair was due to mode conversion due to the mismatch,
fixed mostly by the adjustment presented by the connector lead lengths,
which WOULD be simply a correction of unequal flight times -- most =
easily
viewed as a propagation issue; ie: time domain.
On 12/13/06, ryansatrom <ryan.satrom@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> John-
>
> You are correct. As an SI Engineer, it doesn't help my understanding
> to view a net as a filter. But that doesn't make it invalid.
>
> Thanks for the insight.
>
> Ryan Satrom
>
>
> --- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Hill, John" <John.Hill@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ryan,
> >
> > I would summit to you that not all filters use lumped elements.
> Strip
> > line filters are just lengths of coupled transmission lines and they
> > make very good microware filters.=3D3D20
> >
> > You can also consider a length of coupled transmission lines as two
> > transmission lines with crosstalk. The vantage point depends a lot
> on if
> > you are an SI engineer or an RF engineer.=3D3D20
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > John =3D3D20
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