[SI-LIST] Re: Insertion Loss of Passive Components
- From: "Hill, John" <John.Hill@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <ryan.satrom@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:30:47 -0500
Ryan,
I would summit to you that not all filters use lumped elements. Strip
line filters are just lengths of coupled transmission lines and they
make very good microware filters.=20
You can also consider a length of coupled transmission lines as two
transmission lines with crosstalk. The vantage point depends a lot on if
you are an SI engineer or an RF engineer.=20
Best regards,
John =20
John Hill
Design Engineer
TK HOLDINGS INC =20
Electronics=20
27200 Haggerty Road Suite B-12 =20
Farmington Hills, MI 48331
Office Phone: 248 699 2915
Mobile Phone 248 765 3599
=20
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-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of ryansatrom
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:50 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Insertion Loss of Passive Components
All-
Thanks for your insight. I resolved the issue. To those who are=20
interested, the differential trace model included one trace that was=20
approximately 170mils longer than the other trace. The connector=20
launch, due to its geometry, had that same trace 170mils shorter than=20
the other trace. So when I measured differential insertion loss,=20
there was a resonance due to the length mismatch on both of the=20
subcircuits. However, they pieced together and the resonance was=20
removed, causing improved insertion loss.
John - I like your filter analogy, but I believe that the analogy=20
breaks down when we become concerned about transmission lines (and EM=20
waves) and not lumped elements. It does little to feed our intuition=20
as to how an electromagnetic wave travels down a trace. It is an=20
analog world, but it's also an electromagnetic world:)
--- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Hill, John" <John.Hill@...> wrote:
>
> Ryan,
>=20
> Consider a filter, in the pass band the filter can have a lot of
> inductors and capacitors between the source and the load, but the
> insertion loss is low. This is because all of the inductances and
> capacitances resonate together without changing the real value of=20
the
> impedance.
>=20
> Now consider the same filter in the stop band. The inductors and
> capacitances do not resonate together and either changes the real=20
value
> of the filter or makes it very non-real.=3D3D20
>=20
> The point is that in the pass band the filter correctly matches the
> source impedance to the load impedance and in the stop band the=20
filter
> deliberately miss-matches the impedances.=3D3D20
>=20
> Look at your circuit as a filter. Is it matching or miss-matching=20
the
> source to the load? Remember digital signal are wide band signals.=20
We
> typically need to design our signal paths as low pass filters with=20
high
> cutoff frequencies.
>=20
> As we all know, it is an analog world.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> John
>=20
> John Hill
> Design Engineer
> TK HOLDINGS INC =3D3D20
> Electronics=3D3D20
> 27200 Haggerty Road Suite B-12 =3D3D20
> Farmington Hills, MI 48331
> Office Phone: 248 699 2915
> Mobile Phone 248 765 3599
>=20
>=20
> =3D3D20
>=20
> ---------------------------------------
> The information in this email and attachments hereto may contain=20
legally =3D3D
> privileged, proprietary or confidential information that is=20
intended for =3D3D
> a particular recipient. If you are not the intended recipient(s),=20
or the =3D3D
> employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the =
=3D3D
> intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any disclosure,=20
=3D3D
> copying, distribution, retention or use of the contents of this e-
mail =3D3D
> information is prohibited and may be unlawful. When addressed to=20
Takata =3D3D
> customers or vendors, any information contained in this e-mail is =
=3D3D
> subject to the terms and conditions in the governing contract, if =
=3D3D
> applicable. If you have received this communication in error,=20
please =3D3D
> immediately notify us by return e-mail, permanently delete any =3D3D
> electronic copies of this communication and destroy any paper=20
copies.
> ---------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> From: si-list-bounce@... [mailto:si-list-bounce@...]
> On Behalf Of ryansatrom
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:49 PM
> To: si-list@...
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Insertion Loss of Passive Components
>=20
> SI-Listers:
>=20
> I have set up a simulation and am very confused by the results. =20
I=3D3D20
> have a differential trace in series with a connector launch.
>=20
> I am getting very strange insertion loss results so I'm hoping=3D3D20
> somebody could help advise me as to whether my model is wrong, or=20
I=3D3D20
> am wrong.
>=20
> When I view the differential insertion loss of the system (both=3D3D20
> subcircuits in series), the loss is better (there is less loss)=20
than=3D3D20
> the differential insertion of the trace only. Is this possible? =20
I=3D3D20
> always thought that it was impossible to improve the insertion=20
loss=3D3D20
> by adding a passive component. And I think I still believe that,=20
but=3D3D20
> now I'm getting a little confused.
>=20
> It's also important to note that the single-ended insertion =
loss=3D3D20
> results seem to be as expected. That is, the insertion loss of=20
the=3D3D20
> system is worse than the insertion loss of either individual=3D3D20
> component.
>=20
> Is something occurring with the differential signal to allow it=20
to=3D3D20
> perform better?
>=20
> Please advise. Thanks in advance for your response.
>=20
> Ryan Satrom
> Everett Charles Technologies
> ryan.satrom@...
>=20
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