[SI-LIST] Re: Insertion Loss of Passive Components
- From: "ryansatrom" <ryan.satrom@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:03:38 -0000
John-
You are correct. As an SI Engineer, it doesn't help my understanding
to view a net as a filter. But that doesn't make it invalid.
Thanks for the insight.
Ryan Satrom
--- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Hill, John" <John.Hill@...> wrote:
>
> Ryan,
>
> I would summit to you that not all filters use lumped elements.
Strip
> line filters are just lengths of coupled transmission lines and they
> make very good microware filters.=3D20
>
> You can also consider a length of coupled transmission lines as two
> transmission lines with crosstalk. The vantage point depends a lot
on if
> you are an SI engineer or an RF engineer.=3D20
>
> Best regards,
>
> John =3D20
>
> John Hill
> Design Engineer
> TK HOLDINGS INC =3D20
> Electronics=3D20
> 27200 Haggerty Road Suite B-12 =3D20
> Farmington Hills, MI 48331
> Office Phone: 248 699 2915
> Mobile Phone 248 765 3599
>
>
>
> =3D20
>
> ---------------------------------------
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> privileged, proprietary or confidential information that is
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=3D
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> ---------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: si-list-bounce@... [mailto:si-list-bounce@...]
> On Behalf Of ryansatrom
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:50 AM
> To: si-list@...
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Insertion Loss of Passive Components
>
> All-
>
> Thanks for your insight. I resolved the issue. To those who are=3D20
> interested, the differential trace model included one trace that
was=3D20
> approximately 170mils longer than the other trace. The connector=3D20
> launch, due to its geometry, had that same trace 170mils shorter
than=3D20
> the other trace. So when I measured differential insertion loss,=3D20
> there was a resonance due to the length mismatch on both of the=3D20
> subcircuits. However, they pieced together and the resonance was=3D20
> removed, causing improved insertion loss.
>
> John - I like your filter analogy, but I believe that the analogy=3D20
> breaks down when we become concerned about transmission lines (and
EM=3D20
> waves) and not lumped elements. It does little to feed our
intuition=3D20
> as to how an electromagnetic wave travels down a trace. It is an=3D20
> analog world, but it's also an electromagnetic world:)
>
> --- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Hill, John" <John.Hill@> wrote:
> >
> > Ryan,
> >=3D20
> > Consider a filter, in the pass band the filter can have a lot of
> > inductors and capacitors between the source and the load, but the
> > insertion loss is low. This is because all of the inductances and
> > capacitances resonate together without changing the real value
of=3D20
> the
> > impedance.
> >=3D20
> > Now consider the same filter in the stop band. The inductors and
> > capacitances do not resonate together and either changes the
real=3D20
> value
> > of the filter or makes it very non-real.=3D3D3D20
> >=3D20
> > The point is that in the pass band the filter correctly matches
the
> > source impedance to the load impedance and in the stop band the=3D20
> filter
> > deliberately miss-matches the impedances.=3D3D3D20
> >=3D20
> > Look at your circuit as a filter. Is it matching or miss-
matching=3D20
> the
> > source to the load? Remember digital signal are wide band
signals.=3D20
> We
> > typically need to design our signal paths as low pass filters
with=3D20
> high
> > cutoff frequencies.
> >=3D20
> > As we all know, it is an analog world.
> >=3D20
> > Best regards,
> >=3D20
> > John
> >=3D20
> > John Hill
> > Design Engineer
> > TK HOLDINGS INC =3D3D3D20
> > Electronics=3D3D3D20
> > 27200 Haggerty Road Suite B-12 =3D3D3D20
> > Farmington Hills, MI 48331
> > Office Phone: 248 699 2915
> > Mobile Phone 248 765 3599
> >=3D20
> >=3D20
> > =3D3D3D20
> >=3D20
> > ---------------------------------------
> > The information in this email and attachments hereto may
contain=3D20
> legally =3D3D3D
> > privileged, proprietary or confidential information that is=3D20
> intended for =3D3D3D
> > a particular recipient. If you are not the intended recipient
(s),=3D20
> or the =3D3D3D
> > employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the
=3D
> =3D3D3D
> > intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any
disclosure,=3D20
> =3D3D3D
> > copying, distribution, retention or use of the contents of this e-
> mail =3D3D3D
> > information is prohibited and may be unlawful. When addressed
to=3D20
> Takata =3D3D3D
> > customers or vendors, any information contained in this e-mail is
=3D
> =3D3D3D
> > subject to the terms and conditions in the governing contract, if
=3D
> =3D3D3D
> > applicable. If you have received this communication in error,=3D20
> please =3D3D3D
> > immediately notify us by return e-mail, permanently delete any
=3D3D3D
> > electronic copies of this communication and destroy any paper=3D20
> copies.
> > ---------------------------------------
> > -----Original Message-----
> >=3D20
> > From: si-list-bounce@ [mailto:si-list-bounce@]
> > On Behalf Of ryansatrom
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:49 PM
> > To: si-list@
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Insertion Loss of Passive Components
> >=3D20
> > SI-Listers:
> >=3D20
> > I have set up a simulation and am very confused by the results.
=3D20
> I=3D3D3D20
> > have a differential trace in series with a connector launch.
> >=3D20
> > I am getting very strange insertion loss results so I'm
hoping=3D3D3D20
> > somebody could help advise me as to whether my model is wrong,
or=3D20
> I=3D3D3D20
> > am wrong.
> >=3D20
> > When I view the differential insertion loss of the system
(both=3D3D3D20
> > subcircuits in series), the loss is better (there is less loss)=3D20
> than=3D3D3D20
> > the differential insertion of the trace only. Is this possible?
=3D20
> I=3D3D3D20
> > always thought that it was impossible to improve the insertion=3D20
> loss=3D3D3D20
> > by adding a passive component. And I think I still believe
that,=3D20
> but=3D3D3D20
> > now I'm getting a little confused.
> >=3D20
> > It's also important to note that the single-ended insertion =3D
> loss=3D3D3D20
> > results seem to be as expected. That is, the insertion loss of=3D20
> the=3D3D3D20
> > system is worse than the insertion loss of either
individual=3D3D3D20
> > component.
> >=3D20
> > Is something occurring with the differential signal to allow it=3D20
> to=3D3D3D20
> > perform better?
> >=3D20
> > Please advise. Thanks in advance for your response.
> >=3D20
> > Ryan Satrom
> > Everett Charles Technologies
> > ryan.satrom@
> >=3D20
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