[SI-LIST] Re: DesignCon Papers
- From: Steve Weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: pzilaro@xxxxxxxxxxxx, paul.taddonio@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx, "'silist'" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:17:19 -0800
Patrick, I for one value Chris' contributions greatly, even if diplomacy
was not his minor in college. Chris has proven that he graciously rolls
with the punches as his good humor at the joke Bill Anthony and I played on
him at DesignCon well demonstrated.
Steve
At 12:25 PM 2/8/2005 -0800, Patrick Zilaro wrote:
>Guys,
>
>Chris Cheng purposely acts like this to gain notoriety for the purpose =
>of
>promoting his consulting services.
>
>Please ignore him. The more you publicly "take offense, etc.", the more =
>he
>is getting exactly what he wants.
>
>Regards,
>
>Patrick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =
>On
>Behalf Of Paul Taddonio
>Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:13 PM
>To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx; 'silist'
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DesignCon Papers
>
>I object to the tone and content of this posting.
>
>Paul Taddonio
>
>----- Original Message -----=20
>From: "Chris Cheng" <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: "'silist'" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:25 PM
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DesignCon Papers
>
>
> > Would you care to take the Chris Cheng challenge ?
> >
> > If you don't believe in PI problem. Take out all the PLLVDD filters
>(forget
> > about those crazy output VDD filter, which is questionable) on your
>favorite
> > FPGA or SerDes. Let's see how many of them fail mysteriously in the =
>field
>or
> > just fall off on its face on the tester. And how long you can keep =
>your
>job
> > as a consultant. I have many of the hotshot PLL designers, system
>designers
> > challenging me on this. If you think I am an ass in Si-list, you =
>should
>ask
> > those people what kind of ass I am when I start taunting them when =
>they
>come
> > back to apologize. Ask Ray and Larry's old boss for example.
> >
> > But seriously, ask youself this question, in your 15+ year of =
>experience,
> > how many times you have to design a 100W+ and >1GHz core chip and =
>package?
> > Of those chips, how many of them has to have these superwide (288 bit
>width
> > per bus) FSB on top of $ BSB with 18+ layer boards ? Like I said =
>before,
>if
> > you are not ready to run with the big boys, stay with the crowd. The =
>sad
> > thing is, I can count with one hand how many of those companies can =
>still
> > afford to it and my thinking is it will be even less in a few years.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Sefton [mailto:rsefton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 9:40 PM
> > To: 'silist'
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DesignCon Papers
> >
> >
> > Dear list, especially the power integrity experts and pioneers at Sun,
> > Teraspeed, et al -
> >
> > I've been a list member for more than five years now - rarely
>contributing,
> > but religiously monitoring the dialogue. In the 15+ years I've been in
>this
> > business I've been responsible for or at least been involved in dozens =
>of
> > large PCB designs. Over all of those designs I've seen maybe 4-5 =
>signal
> > integrity problems (where operation was affected), but I have never, =
>ever
> > seen a power integrity problem. Virtually all of these designs have
>included
> > at least one FPGA, a processor, and SRAM and/or SDRAM. And several =
>have
> > included FPGAs plus ICs dissipating 20+ watts with SPI-4.2, SerDes, =
>DDR,
>and
> > other high speed interfaces.
> >
> > I'm a consultant, and I primarily work with small start-up companies =
>that
> > have no budget and no inclination for SI tools. (They'll spend many =
>$100Ks
> > or even $1Ms on IC tools, but won't spend a dime on PCB tools other =
>than
> > schematic entry and layout.) Probably half of the boards I've been
>involved
> > with are prototype builds where schedule is paramount. With these I =
>can
> > rarely exert enough control to get the layout exactly like I want, and
>often
> > the boards go out with serious reservations on my part. I always try =
>to
> > observe the prevailing guidelines expressed here and elsewhere, but =
>I've
> > seen boards go out with barely any copper left in the "planes" beneath
>large
> > power-hungry BGA parts due to poor via placement and large anti-pads. =
>I
> > recently saw a board come back where a large Virtex-II FPGA would not
> > configure. It was traced down to the fact that the core power islands
>under
> > the BGA were were so sliced up that they were not connected to the =
>core
> > power VRM. The swiss cheese core power "plane" was re-connected to the
>+1.5V
> > supply with a 4" blue wire through one via on the bottom of the board.
>Guess
> > what - it worked like a champ.
> >
> > I'm not trying to be an ass here (I'll leave that to Chris C. :`)), =
>but
>I'm
> > really beginning to question the need for some or even most of the
> > theoretical PI analyses espoused here. I can't believe that luck has =
>made
> > all of my boards work over the years, despite not having access to SI =
>or
>PI
> > tools of any kind. What I really think is going on is that there are =
>very
> > few designs that need the ultra-low-mOhm, highly-simulated, and
> > highly-engineered power distribution methodologies that have been
>discussed
> > here recently. I'll be damned if I can make a board NOT work due to =
>how
> > power is distributed.
> >
> > In the PI discussions on the SI-list I almost never hear power/current
> > levels discussed. I'm sure that Sun cranks out boards with processor =
>ICs
>or
> > modules that draw 10s of Amps of core power, where detailed analysis =
>of
>the
> > PDS is critical. But what about us mortals who design run-of-the-mill =
>FPGA
>+
> > PowerPC + MAC, etc., type of boards? As I said, despite some brutally =
>bad
> > layouts, I have NEVER had a problem related to power distribution.
> >
> > I have two requests to the list:
> >
> > 1. When espousing SI and/or PI practices, please be as specific as
>possible
> > about when these practices are warranted, and more importantly, when =
>they
> > are not.
> >
> > 2. I would LOVE to hear more detailed reports from the trenches (i.e. =
>war
> > stories) about SI and PI problems that were actually seen on real =
>boards
> > (not in simulation), and how they were fixed. This is something that =
>is
> > almost NEVER discussed amongst the regulars here.
> >
> > I have a strong sense that non-experts (like me) who monitor this list =
>are
> > buying into methods that may not apply to their designs and are =
>therefore
> > over-engineering (one of my least favorite things - I prefer to
> > under-engineer and get away with it).
> >
> > All comments are welcome.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bob Sefton
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> > List FAQ wiki page is located at:
> > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
> >
> > List technical documents are available at:
> > http://www.si-list.org
> >
> > List archives are viewable at:
> > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> > List FAQ wiki page is located at:
> > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
> >
> > List technical documents are available at:
> > http://www.si-list.org
> >
> > List archives are viewable at:
> > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> >
> >
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from si-list:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
>For help:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>List FAQ wiki page is located at:
> http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
>
>List technical documents are available at:
> http://www.si-list.org
>
>List archives are viewable at: =20
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>or at our remote archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> =20
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from si-list:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
>For help:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>List FAQ wiki page is located at:
> http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
>
>List technical documents are available at:
> http://www.si-list.org
>
>List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>or at our remote archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
The weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx e-mail address will terminate March 31, 2005.
Please update your address book with weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List FAQ wiki page is located at:
http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.org
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
