[SI-LIST] Re: DDR SDRAM signal routing

Brian
So based on your comments, I understand that Intel Corporation will 
Guarantee the design solutions that are provided to customers in 
application notes and design guidelines.  Is that correct?

scott


Moran, Brian P wrote:

>Hi Dan,
>
>Your point is well taken. If you're willing to do the simulations you
>can sometimes further optimize the design for your specific solution
>space, and in some cases perhaps even eliminate the need for some
>components. For example, series Rs are often specified in guidelines to
>cover certain topology corner cases that do not exist in some designs,
>but do exist within the overall solution space simulated in the
>generation
>of the guidelines. So if you have the time and resources there is always
>potential to leverage your knowledge of the actual platform design and
>stackup to further optimize. Another example would be the PCB
>fabrication parameters. Our guidelines assume a fairly wide range of
>material tolerances and trace tolerances. These ranges are specifed to
>cover 90% of the known PCB vendor space, so customers can use the most
>cost effective vendors. If you know your using a higher tier vendor with
>tighter capabilities, you can ring more out of your design that our
>guidelines might specify. It's a question of return on investment, but I
>would never discourage anyone from doing their own simulation,
>especially where a design is known to have fewer degrees of freedom than
>the general case. Before I start removing components, however, I'd want
>to have complete confidence in my models. The good news is you don't
>have to simulate if you can live with the generic solution.
>=20
>Brian P. Moran=20
>Calistoga SIE Kit Leader=20
>Intel Corporation=20
>brian.p.moran@xxxxxxxxx=20
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Bostan [mailto:dbostan@xxxxxxxxx]=20
>Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:46 AM
>To: Moran, Brian P; leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Tom Biggs;
>si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR SDRAM signal routing
>
>I beg to differ with Brian, because I just simulated such an interface
>and was able to eliminate a couple of components and improve the quality
>at the same time.
>I would say that the simulation of a DRR interface is mandatory.
>/dan
>
>
>--- "Moran, Brian P" <brian.p.moran@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi Folks,
>>=20
>>As frequency bins move upward you find new sources of SI issues even=20
>>in legacy DDR2/3 topologies. This along with subtle changes in buffer=20
>>designs and SDRAM module design require extensive frequency domain and
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>time domain simulations be done for every new DDR2/3 generation.
>>Fortunately, the mainstream memory controller vendors do all of this=20
>>for the end users and provide guidelines which if followed allow the=20
>>associated platform designs to be launched successfully without=20
>>simulation.  A lot of analysis also goes into the JEDEC raw card=20
>>specifications to ensure the resident portion of the topologies are=20
>>optimized. So in most cases the end user does not need to simulate.=20
>>Just follow the guidelines.=3D20
>>=20
>>Intel provides such guidelines and only recommends simulation when the
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>design deviates from our assumptions in terms of platform stackup, bus
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>lengths, and/or routing geometries. We try to provide a guaranteed=20
>>solution space which is adequate to allow our customers to build their
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>full line of boxes and get to market without extensive amounts of=20
>>simulation. Of course most big system houses have simulation resources
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>and expertise, but its not necessarily required unless the design is=20
>>unique in some way. Where simulation is needed is for people doing=20
>>non-standard applications using non-PC form factors and/or memory down
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>on the motherboard, etc... Another can of worms applies to folks using
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>dual stripline stackups where layer to layer coupling is not zero, or=20
>>where pure orthogonal routing rules can generate higher than expected=20
>>via counts. In these cases auxiliary simulation should be performed.=20
>>=3D20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>Brian P. Moran=3D20
>>Calistoga SIE Kit Leader=3D20
>>Intel Corporation=3D20
>>brian.p.moran@xxxxxxxxx=3D20
>>=20
>>=20
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
>>Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 10:33 AM
>>To: Tom Biggs; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR SDRAM signal routing
>>=20
>>All you have to do then, is trust those simulations.
>> Based on the
>>accuracy of the average application note, is that a good thing to do?
>>=20
>>Lee W. Ritchey
>>Speeding Edge
>>P. O. Box 2194
>>Glen Ellen, CA 95442
>>Phone- 707-568-3983
>>FAX-    707-568-3504
>>=20
>>I just used the energy it took to be angry to write some blues.
>>Count Basie
>>=20
>>=20
>>    
>>
>>>[Original Message]
>>>From: Tom Biggs <tbiggs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>Date: 11/8/2004 10:14:43 AM
>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR SDRAM signal routing
>>>
>>>I'm going to play devil's advocate here just to
>>>      
>>>
>>get people thinking.
>>    
>>
>>>(Note that I simulate the DDR designs I've done).
>>>
>>>Ed says "The driving force behind all this is time
>>>      
>>>
>>to market and=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>system reliability."
>>>
>>>There is one other force: cost. These days we can
>>>      
>>>
>>be easily outsourced
>>=20
>>    
>>
>>>if we are too expensive to our bosses.=3D3D20
>>>
>>>How many IBM PowerPC 440GX (now AMCC's chip)
>>>      
>>>
>>designs have been done?=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>How many times have people simulated them and come
>>>      
>>>
>>up with design=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>guidelines that will work? Yes, many of these
>>>      
>>>
>>designs are different=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>from each other, but I would bet that many of them
>>>      
>>>
>>are EXACTLY the=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>same. Do we need 100 engineers to simulate the
>>>      
>>>
>>exact same thing 100=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>times to come up with 100 identical sets of
>>>      
>>>
>>routing rules?=3D3D20
>>    
>>
>>>If AMCC ran lots of simulations, then came out
>>>      
>>>
>>with a set of strict=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>routing rules for some typical embedded 440GX
>>>      
>>>
>>applications, then=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>someone should be able to design a board with
>>>      
>>>
>>these rules and not have
>>=20
>>    
>>
>>>to run simulations. Reliability should be fine if
>>>      
>>>
>>they do their job=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>right, time to market will be short, and cost will
>>>      
>>>
>>be low.
>>    
>>
>>>    -tom
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20=20
>>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>On Behalf Of Ed Sayre III
>>>Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 9:33 AM
>>>To: pm_norge@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR SDRAM signal routing
>>>
>>>
>>>Peter,
>>>   You NEED to run simulations.  I have worked on
>>>      
>>>
>>DDR SDRAMs=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>architectures=3D3D20 for many years now and every
>>>      
>>>
>>one was slightly=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>different.  You can benefit=3D3D20 greatly from
>>>      
>>>
>>simulations since it=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>generates your skew budget, component=3D3D20
>>>      
>>>
>>placement and proper=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>termination among other design points.  If
>>>      
>>>
>>you=3D3D20 management tells =3D
>>you
>>=20
>>    
>>
>>>that they are willing to spend the money on
>>>      
>>>
>>repeated=3D3D20 turns, where =3D
>>=20
>>    
>>
>>>you may or may not find the right answer, then you
>>>      
>>>
>>are wasting=3D3D20 =3D
>>your
>>=20
>>    
>>
>>>money.  Either hire a consultant with experience
>>>      
>>>
>>in the area of DDR
>>    
>>
>>>memory or develop your own in house expertise.=20
>>>      
>>>
>>There are many people=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>and=3D3D20
>>>products available right now.    The driving force
>>>      
>>>
>>behind all this is
>>    
>>
>>>time=3D3D20
>>>to market and system reliability.
>>>
>>>Good luck
>>>-Ed Sayre
>>>
>>>
>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>               NORTH EAST SYSTEMS ASSOCIATES, INC
>>>                             =3D
>>>      
>>>
>>-------------------------------------=3D3D20
>>    
>>
>>>                         "High Performance
>>>      
>>>
>>Engineering & Design"
>>    
>>
>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>  Dr. Edward Sayre 3rd            e-mail:
>>>      
>>>
>>esayre3@xxxxxxxx
>>    
>>
>>>  NESA, Inc.                            =20
>>>      
>>>
>>http://www.nesa.com/
>>    
>>
>>>  5 Lan Drive, Suite 200          Tel=20
>>>      
>>>
>>+1.978.392-8787 x 218
>>    
>>
>>>  Westford, MA 01886 USA       Fax +1.978.392-8686
>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>At 09:32 AM 11/8/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I have been designing different kinds of
>>>>        
>>>>
>>electronic products, but=3D20
>>    
>>
>>>>never
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>a DDR SDRAM interface with 16 memory chips
>>>>        
>>>>
>>(MT46V64M8, 512Mb =3D
>>=20
>>    
>>
>=3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D
>
>
>
>       =09
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?=20
>Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.=20
>www.yahoo.com=20
>=20
>
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