Great post Helen. I have a question for the Lister's. When you are considering judges to show under at an all breed show, do any of you do a history check and see what dog he or she started out in? If you do why? If a judge started out in Collies what would that tell me? Terry in Cold Oregon. Brr. PS the pup that Ruth kept from the Garbo Foster litter is really a neat pup. Not afraid of any thing. VPREZHMF@xxxxxxx wrote: Reading all the discussion re GSD Judges,I thought I'd contribute my thoughts. First,when I got my license to judge GSD in 1965, I did ,like all of you do the first 2-3 yrs--judged lots and lots of Specialties,plus Futurities,and of course the National. Also, in those days,we had many large All Breed shows,like the International KC ,in Chicago,or Santa Barbara KC in Calif,and Westbury KC in Long Island. These shows had very large GSD entries( 200 allowed at that time) so the clubs always hired Specialty Judges for the GSD. These shows were also benched,as many All Breed shows were back then. Consequently,after judging the GSD all day,you were apt to stay around to watch Groups ( to see how my GSD would do ) and BIS. So you mingled,watched and learned about other breeds.. I love judging---still do ,so decided to go for more breeds. I do 51/2 Groups,so I guess you can classify me as All Breed. I personally watch carefully on how often I do GSD at an All Breed,because there are 3-4 times the number of shows as a our Specialties.and the Supt. never bother to watch. For instance,this past weekend, I judged Granite City KC,and they had the same judge doing GSD,as last year. Now to the points I wanted to make 1). You become a much better judge of GSD,after doing some other related breeds ( Aussies,instead of Poodles)2.) You learn something at AB that you never learn doing just Specialties--that is organization. Because you are on a time schedule,you learn to compare, judge,and make decisions. This is why Barbara Amidon did such a good job at the National. Barbara did AB shows,and judges a number of other breeds. 3.).You learn that you are not there to put on a display of yourself,but to do a workman-like job of judging. I judged three days in a row doing 175 dogs plus two Groups per day,in Montana last year.. You don't concern yourself,whether it's the "right "dog, or whether it is going to please someone or not.You just get in the ring and JUDGE dogs 4.) We do have a lot of AB, as well as Specialty judges that no matter how many seminars they go to,how many books they read,simply don't have the "eye"--and never will do a good job. One last thing--Carolyn mentioned me walking the dogs part way around the ring.,at AB shows I still do that,but,first I have also have gaited them around the ring 3 times ,and done partial judging already. I do it for this reason.You can see the slow motion action of the shoulder very clearly,and I'm a bug on good fronts and shoulders. So ,after gaiting the dogs first, looking at the shoulder in slow motion,is just another judging tool for me. And when you go that slow,it certainly shows some other things as well--like foot dragging.and rolling backs. Sorry that this was such a long email. Helen Miller Fisher ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. 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