[rollei_list] Re: OT Ancient Computers (was Re: Re: Rollei -Singapore) now analogue versus digital
- From: Carlos Manuel Freaza <cmfreaza@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:13:11 -0800 (PST)
Frank, the Leica M8 has not impressed me, I have seen prints and images in
Flickr and there is nothing to say: wow!, except for the price, it's more
expensive than a new Rolleiflex FT (I have also seen the 2007 LUG book).Some
color images in Flickr look very good.
I only need manual controls for shutter speeds and f stops and a good lens to
take a photograph,seeing the results in the darkroom if I shoot B&W, this is
the way I enjoy photography.
The 1937 Contax II has been a nice surprise to me, except for the system to
load film, you need to crop the film tab to insert it in the spool.
Best regards
Carlos
--- El mar 13-ene-09, Frank Dernie <Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> escribió:
> De: Frank Dernie <Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Asunto: [rollei_list] Re: OT Ancient Computers (was Re: Re: Rollei
> -Singapore) now analogue versus digital
> Para: rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Fecha: martes, 13 de enero de 2009, 5:38 am
> The grains in the emulsion are not that thick. The 3
> dimensionality
> you see is, in my opinion, more likely to be an optical
> characteristic
> than anything to do with grains verses pixels, which I do
> not think
> differ as greatly as you imply.
> I still get a great 3 dimensional look to my pictures using
> my Leica
> M8 like I did with my M6 on film. IMHO it is a lens
> characteristic.
> Pity I can't get a digital image from my 3.5f to
> compare!
> best regards.
> Frank
>
>
> On 12 Jan, 2009, at 21:01, Carlos Manuel Freaza wrote:
>
> > The limit to appreciate the image quality is the human
> eye capacity,
> > film and digital means have surpassed the human eye
> capacity to
> > appreciate sharpness differences widely, f.e. the
> human eye can't
> > distinguish in the monitor screen a digital image at
> 24 bits and at
> > 48 bits, the human eye can't distinguish a printed
> image denser than
> > X lines per mm. The issue is the way the observer
> perceive the image
> > and there is a real difference for grain and pixels,
> it is difficult
> > or impossible to see in the monitor screen in general,
> however a
> > well worked analog image has a three dimensions
> quality due to the
> > grains physical structure absent in the pure pixel
> image.
> >
> > Carlos
> > --- El lun 12-ene-09, Frank Dernie
> <Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > escribió:
> >
> >> De: Frank Dernie
> <Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Asunto: [rollei_list] Re: OT Ancient Computers
> (was Re: Re: Rollei -
> >> Singapore) now analogue versus digital
> >> Para: rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Fecha: lunes, 12 de enero de 2009, 5:21 pm
> >> Carlos,
> >>
> >> I have been taking pictures since I was 11, in
> 1961. For
> >> most of that time I have had my own darkroom. I am
> quite
> >> aware of what one can do with film, and obviously
> better
> >> technicians that I can get better results than I.
> However
> >> the dynamic range of readily available digital
> sensors
> >> exceeds that of colour films now. The non linear S
> shape to
> >> the characteristic curve of films does allow more
> detail to
> >> be seen in either highlights or shadows if so
> manipulated.
> >> Similar manipulations are possible on digital
> files if
> >> desired.
> >> There is a potential for Moire effects when there
> is detail
> >> in a scene and resolution in the lens high enough
> to exceed
> >> the resolution of the sensor. Anti-aliasing
> filters are the
> >> normal way to avoid this effect, in electronics
> too. In the
> >> case of photography there are sensors which exceed
> the
> >> resolution of all but a few of the most
> specialised lenses
> >> available for the camera. The anti-aliasing filter
> is
> >> probably not necessary in those cases since the
> function is
> >> carried out by the lens. My Leica M8 does not have
> an anti
> >> aliasing filter and I have yet to be unable to
> deal with any
> >> unfortunate artefacts due to this. Quite the
> opposite in
> >> fact, I get better results from it than I do from
> my
> >> theoretically superior Canon EOS 1Ds mk2, thought
> that is
> >> probably the better lenses.
> >>
> >> Sharpening can certainly be overdone, but it is
> not
> >> commonly the case, and I certainly would advise
> not to
> >> over-sharpen :-)
> >>
> >> On digital one eventually gets to individual
> pixels, like
> >> on film one eventually gets to individual grains.
> There is a
> >> difference but just a question of how you deal
> with it, this
> >> difference between film and digital is not IMHO
> significant.
> >>
> >> The only area where I have found digital a bit
> more
> >> difficult than film is in focussing. My M8 is so
> much
> >> sharper than my M6 with Kodachrome that any small
> focussing
> >> errors, either due to myself or the dreaded focus
> shift on
> >> stopping down, are much more troublesome than were
> revealed
> >> by the somewhat more forgiving softness (and
> perhaps
> >> variations in flatness???) of film.
> >>
> >> best regards,
> >> Frank
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12 Jan, 2009, at 19:55, Carlos Manuel Freaza
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Frank, I really can't imagine the way you
> use your
> >> film cameras to obtain those conclusions.
> >>>
> >>> Films have personality; DSLRs don't. While
> many
> >> DSLRs let you dial in higher or lower saturation
> and
> >> contrast, those crude adjustments can't
> compare to the
> >> richness of film, whether Velvia's crisp,
> saturated look
> >> or the delicate tonal shoulder of Tri-X.
> (Black-and-white is
> >> a particular challenge for digital, especially
> in-camera.)
> >>> Film can be manipulated to soak up even more
> of a
> >> scene's tonal extremes. You can rein in
> highlights by
> >> "pulling," or shortening, the
> development of
> >> b&w film. You compensate for this by adding
> exposure
> >> when shooting, improving shadow detail. You can
> overexpose
> >> color negative film by as much as four stops to
> increase
> >> shadow detail and reduce contrast, without
> damaging
> >> highlight nuances.
> >>>
> >>> Some super-duper digital backs claim to match
> or
> >> exceed the range captured by film. If you can
> afford them,
> >> go for it -- and bring along your laptop.
> >>>
> >>> You can sharpen a digital image in software.
> And with
> >> most DSLRs you must, because images are
> considerably
> >> softened by anti-aliasing filters that keep their
> sensors
> >> from recording jagged edges and moiré patterns.
> Yet if you
> >> overdo your sharpening, the image can take on a
> >> distractingly "crispy" appearance. The
> sharpness
> >> you get from film is more natural looking.
> >>>
> >>> (Some parts above were taken from a Pop Photo
> article
> >> by Russell Hart)
> >>>
> >>> Digital is very practical to use for a lot of
> >> situations and well balanced images look very nice
> in the
> >> monitor screens, but most of them don't show
> the detail
> >> richness and tones subtleties you can obtain from
> a neg or
> >> slide for prints, magazines, projection, books
> etc. and
> >> I'm talking about a 35mm format.
> >>>
> >>> Carlos
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- El lun 12-ene-09, Frank Dernie
> >> <Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> escribió:
> >>>
> >>>>> If you shoot large format that can be
> true.
> >> For medium
> >>>> format or what used to be called
> "miniature
> >>>> format" when I started photography
> this is
> >> not true.
> >>>> The only film parameter which has the
> potential be
> >> better
> >>>> than digital is -perhaps- resolution, but
> only
> >> very slow
> >>>> black and white films in ideal exposure
> >> conditions.
> >>>> In all other respects digital is superior
> - in my
> >>>> experience.
> >>>> My Rolleiflex 6008i is not capable of
> producing
> >> colour
> >>>> pictures to match those from several of my
> digital
> >> cameras.
> >>>> 35mm has been behind for years.
> >>>> I am not aware of -anybody- with in depth
> >> experience of
> >>>> both who would agree with you.
> >>>> Perhaps I am going to get the first
> convincing
> >> information
> >>>> as a result of this email!
> >>>> best regards,
> >>>> Frank
> >>>>
> >>>> I am comparing Velvia, Provia, Kodachrome
> in
> >> Canon, Leica,
> >>>> Rollei and Mamiya film cameras (up to
> 6x7cm) with
> >> digital
> >>>> from Leica M8, Canon EOS 1Ds mk2 and Nikon
> D3.
> >> Most recently
> >>>> I have been trying a Nikon D3x but have
> not formed
> >> any
> >>>> conclusions yet since I have not shot with
> it
> >> enough.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 12 Jan, 2009, at 16:13, Carlos Manuel
> Freaza
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> --- El lun 12-ene-09, Frank Dernie
> >>>> <Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> escribió:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> In all practical ways digital has
> exceeded
> >> the
> >>>> capability
> >>>>>> of film for some time. Certainly
> if there
> >> is an
> >>>> effect which
> >>>>>> one wishes to achieve, using a
> vintage LF
> >> lens for
> >>>> example,
> >>>>>> film may have to be the choice but
> that
> >> does not
> >>>> make film
> >>>>>> better, just an appropriate choice
> in some
> >>>> circumstances.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Film is the best choice when you need
> the
> >> highest
> >>>> image quality.-
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Carlos
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yahoo! Cocina
> >>>>> Recetas prácticas y comida saludable
> >>>>> http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/
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