[rollei_list] Re: OT Ancient Computers (was Re: Re: Rollei -Singapore) now analogue versus digital

The grains in the emulsion are not that thick. The 3 dimensionality you see is, in my opinion, more likely to be an optical characteristic than anything to do with grains verses pixels, which I do not think differ as greatly as you imply. I still get a great 3 dimensional look to my pictures using my Leica M8 like I did with my M6 on film. IMHO it is a lens characteristic.

Pity I can't get a digital image from my 3.5f to compare!
best regards.
Frank


On 12 Jan, 2009, at 21:01, Carlos Manuel Freaza wrote:

The limit to appreciate the image quality is the human eye capacity, film and digital means have surpassed the human eye capacity to appreciate sharpness differences widely, f.e. the human eye can't distinguish in the monitor screen a digital image at 24 bits and at 48 bits, the human eye can't distinguish a printed image denser than X lines per mm. The issue is the way the observer perceive the image and there is a real difference for grain and pixels, it is difficult or impossible to see in the monitor screen in general, however a well worked analog image has a three dimensions quality due to the grains physical structure absent in the pure pixel image.

Carlos
--- El lun 12-ene-09, Frank Dernie <Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> escribió:

De: Frank Dernie <Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Asunto: [rollei_list] Re: OT Ancient Computers (was Re: Re: Rollei - Singapore) now analogue versus digital
Para: rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Fecha: lunes, 12 de enero de 2009, 5:21 pm
Carlos,

I have been taking pictures since I was 11, in 1961. For
most of that time I have had my own darkroom. I am quite
aware of what one can do with film, and obviously better
technicians that I can get better results than I. However
the dynamic range of readily available digital sensors
exceeds that of colour films now. The non linear S shape to
the characteristic curve of films does allow more detail to
be seen in either highlights or shadows if so manipulated.
Similar manipulations are possible on digital files if
desired.
There is a potential for Moire effects when there is detail
in a scene and resolution in the lens high enough to exceed
the resolution of the sensor. Anti-aliasing filters are the
normal way to avoid this effect, in electronics too. In the
case of photography there are sensors which exceed the
resolution of all but a few of the most specialised lenses
available for the camera. The anti-aliasing filter is
probably not necessary in those cases since the function is
carried out by the lens. My Leica M8 does not have an anti
aliasing filter and I have yet to be unable to deal with any
unfortunate artefacts due to this. Quite the opposite in
fact, I get better results from it than I do from my
theoretically superior Canon EOS 1Ds mk2, thought that is
probably the better lenses.

Sharpening can certainly be overdone, but it is not
commonly the case, and I certainly would advise not to
over-sharpen :-)

On digital one eventually gets to individual pixels, like
on film one eventually gets to individual grains. There is a
difference but just a question of how you deal with it, this
difference between film and digital is not IMHO significant.

The only area where I have found digital a bit more
difficult than film is in focussing. My M8 is so much
sharper than my M6 with Kodachrome that any small focussing
errors, either due to myself or the dreaded focus shift on
stopping down, are much more troublesome than were revealed
by the somewhat more forgiving softness (and perhaps
variations in flatness???) of film.

best regards,
Frank


On 12 Jan, 2009, at 19:55, Carlos Manuel Freaza wrote:

Frank, I really can't imagine the way you use your
film cameras to obtain those conclusions.

Films have personality; DSLRs don't. While many
DSLRs let you dial in higher or lower saturation and
contrast, those crude adjustments can't compare to the
richness of film, whether Velvia's crisp, saturated look
or the delicate tonal shoulder of Tri-X. (Black-and-white is
a particular challenge for digital, especially in-camera.)
Film can be manipulated to soak up even more of a
scene's tonal extremes. You can rein in highlights by
"pulling," or shortening, the development of
b&w film. You compensate for this by adding exposure
when shooting, improving shadow detail. You can overexpose
color negative film by as much as four stops to increase
shadow detail and reduce contrast, without damaging
highlight nuances.

Some super-duper digital backs claim to match or
exceed the range captured by film. If you can afford them,
go for it -- and bring along your laptop.

You can sharpen a digital image in software. And with
most DSLRs you must, because images are considerably
softened by anti-aliasing filters that keep their sensors
from recording jagged edges and moiré patterns. Yet if you
overdo your sharpening, the image can take on a
distractingly "crispy" appearance. The sharpness
you get from film is more natural looking.

(Some parts above were taken from a Pop Photo article
by Russell Hart)

Digital is very practical to use for a lot of
situations and well balanced images look very nice in the
monitor screens, but most of them don't show the detail
richness and tones subtleties you can obtain from a neg or
slide for prints, magazines, projection, books etc. and
I'm talking about a 35mm format.

Carlos






--- El lun 12-ene-09, Frank Dernie
<Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> escribió:

If you shoot large format that can be true.
For medium
format or what used to be called "miniature
format" when I started photography this is
not true.
The only film parameter which has the potential be
better
than digital is -perhaps- resolution, but only
very slow
black and white films in ideal exposure
conditions.
In all other respects digital is superior - in my
experience.
My Rolleiflex 6008i is not capable of producing
colour
pictures to match those from several of my digital
cameras.
35mm has been behind for years.
I am not aware of -anybody- with in depth
experience of
both who would agree with you.
Perhaps I am going to get the first convincing
information
as a result of this email!
best regards,
Frank

I am comparing Velvia, Provia, Kodachrome in
Canon, Leica,
Rollei and Mamiya film cameras (up to 6x7cm) with
digital
from Leica M8, Canon EOS 1Ds mk2 and Nikon D3.
Most recently
I have been trying a Nikon D3x but have not formed
any
conclusions yet since I have not shot with it
enough.




On 12 Jan, 2009, at 16:13, Carlos Manuel Freaza
wrote:

--- El lun 12-ene-09, Frank Dernie
<Frank.Dernie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> escribió:

In all practical ways digital has exceeded
the
capability
of film for some time. Certainly if there
is an
effect which
one wishes to achieve, using a vintage LF
lens for
example,
film may have to be the choice but that
does not
make film
better, just an appropriate choice in some
circumstances.

Film is the best choice when you need the
highest
image quality.-

Carlos



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