Re: programming languages , environments and jaws

another thing, and I ran head first into this one (luckily I'm an Aries, who's sign is the ram, so have the head for it) is in language development for jaws, I had a group of folks, who were willing to do any and all work to produce the files needed for two additional languages for jaws that it does not currently support, and all I got back from them was dead silence *sigh*


the folks were willing to do this for free too!

ah well,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws


If FS specifically documented what each script and function did, then I
agree that it should also specifically document changes in behavior.
With respect to script or event functions, however, the description is
typically general in nature.  So, we might be informed that SayWindowTitle
(the default script attached to JAWSKey+T) reads the title of the current
window, but not specifically how a window or title is defined.  We might
be informed that the FocusChangedEvent is triggered whenever control focus
changes,, but not told precisely what that function in default.jss tries
to do in different contexts.  Sometimes, new JAWS versions also add event
functions that were not triggered previously.  Thus, changes in the
default scripts naturally result in some changes in default speaking
behavior that do not necessarily contradict the documentation.

With that said, I do wish FS did more to support script developers.  For
example, an official document about what's new in the scripting language
would be helpful so that we do not have to figure this out ourselves by
comparing documentation and scripts between versions.

Jamal


On Sun, 9 Dec 2007, Marlon Brandão de Sousa wrote:

Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 13:12:06 -0300
From: Marlon Brandão de Sousa <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws

Hello Will,
Thanks for your explanations. Of corse I do understand all you said,
being a component producer and a somewhat experiensed programmer, but
you forgot to mention another aspect, which is the documentation.
If a jaws scripting function change its behavior or will return a
different data, it should be documented. For example, if the rand() C
function changed its behavior, let's say, the next version of rand()
will return onluy numbers between 1 and 5 from now on, it should be
documented.
As jaws scripting functions have relatively the same documentation
across its versions they in fact are expected to do exactly the
samething, sinse the first version they were implemented on.
Dennis gave me a good example of a change in how a script could behave
differently, but I don't know if this is documented. A developper need
to trust in the documentation available, if something changes it
should be documented.
Marlon
2007/12/8, Will Pearson <will@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> Hi Marlon,
>
> You are right to a certain extent.  Functions and classes in programming
> generally perform the same task across different versions; however,
> programmers can change the task that a function or class performs. To > my > knowledge the only technology that encourages developers to keep the > tasks
> that their functions and classes perform the same across versions is
> Microsoft's COM, which has the notion of an immutable interface as part > of > its design philosophy. On the other hand, finding a function or class > that
> performs different tasks across different versions is quite hard as
> developers tend to create new functions and classes to perform different
> tasks.
>
> The other aspect governing whether functions and classes perform the > same > across different versions is implementation. Developers are often free > to
> change how tasks are performed, and this is true for all technologies
> including Microsoft's COM. The more technical programs often take > advantage > of the particular way in which something is implemented to produce > specific
> behaviour in that program.  This gives rise to problems when the
> implementation details change.
>
> So, the functions found in JAWS scripting are likely to give the same
> behaviourr across different versions but whether they do is due to the > will
> of Freedom Scientific.
>
> Visual Studio 2005 is not entirely reliant on the scripts that have been
> produced for it; in fact, the goal was actually to develop Visual Studio
> 2005 so that no scripts were needed. Unfortunately, the versions of > JAWS
> that were around during the development of Visual Studio 2005 didn't use
> MSAA much and their built in MSAA clients had some serious bugs, such as
> combining AccName and AccDescription.  So, some scripts were needed to
> handle some parts of Visual Studio 2005, such as the code editor.  Most
> parts of the Visual Studio 2005 user interface just make use of the > standard > JAWS scripts that JAWS uses by default. So, changes to these will > affect
> how JAWS behaves with Visual Studio 2005.
>
> Will
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 10:31 PM
> Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws
>
>
> What I don't understand is the following:
> if I use a jaws scripting built in function called a() and this
> function is present on jaws from, let's say, 6 and above, and the
> documentation says that function a() will return some information,
> every script ewhich uses the function a() should act accordingly with
> the documentation, and it should act the same way don't mather what
> version is used.
> Given this, I think, cinse vs 2005 is fully dependant on scripts, vs
> .net 2005  should be read the same way in every versions of jaws which
> will allow the scripts to compile, I mean that offer suport to the
> functions used by these scripts.
> The only thing that makes sense for me in explaining why different
> versions of jaws act differently is if I assume that the return of
> scripting built in functions would be different across them. Is it
> right?
> Marlon
>
> 2007/12/8, Will Pearson <will@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> > Hi Marlon,
> >
> > I would say that version six of JAWS is probably the minimum version > > for
> > use
> > with Visual Studio 2005.  Visual Studio 2005 was tested against JAWS
> > versions between five and seven as these were the versions that were
> > current
> > or released during the development of Visual Studio 2005.
> >
> > The versions of JAWS that were tested against Visual Studio 2005 all > > work
> > pretty much the same when used with the scripts; however, there is one
> > problem with version five of JAWS that cannot be fixed by the scripts.
> > The
> > problem is that the off screen model seems to get stuck in an infinite
> > loop,
> > or performs some other task that seems never ending, when the Solution
> > Explorer becomes visible under some circumstances. The curcumstance > > that
> > I
> > know that causes this is when the Solution Explorer first becomes > > visible > > after creating an MFC project or upgrading a VC project from an > > earlier
> > version of Visual C++.  This problem doesn't seem to be present in
> > versions
> > of JAWS later than five.
> >
> > I can't comment on versions of JAWS above seven from my personal
> > experience.
> > I don't use JAWS that much these days, and I haven't been inclined to > > keep > > my copy of JAWS up to date. So, I don't own a copy of version eight. > > If > > the comments that Dennis made about greater use of MSAA are true, and > > I > > believe them to be given Dennis's former position with Freedom > > Scientific,
> > then version eight may be slightly better.
> >
> > Will
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 8:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws
> >
> >
> > Do the scripts have a minimum jaws version set to run properly? If the
> > scripts can be compiled and used in jaws 6 I see no reazons why jaws 8
> > would run better, cinse the scripts will take control of things.
> > This is not to contradict you, I am curious.
> > Marlon
> >
> > 2007/12/7, inthaneelf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> > > Marvin,
> > >
> > > you might want to take this chance to get your jaws upgraded, I do
> > > believe
> > > that jaws 8 works better with the vs IDE's than does jaws 6, and you
> > > will
> > > need the scripts for VS 2005-2008 that are available from my grab > > > bag
> > > site
> > > (see URL under my name) and can benefit from other materials there > > > for
> > > the
> > > VS IDE's there as well.
> > >
> > > good luck,
> > > inthane
> > > . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, > > > and
> > > Links
> > > to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me > > > at:
> > > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> > > . to be able to view a simple programming project in several > > > programming
> > > languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
> > > http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 3:42 AM
> > > Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws
> > >
> > >
> > > > It will work well with all .net 2003 languages, very well with all
> > > > .net 2005 languages, expectedly well with all .net 2008 languages > > > > and > > > > it isn't likely to work with .net 2002 languages. Scripts and or > > > > lug > > > > ins are needed, depending on what version you will be using > > > > though.
> > > > Marlon
> > > >
> > > > 2007/12/7, marvin hunkin <marvkin@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi.
> > > >> looking to do programming at my college for 2008.
> > > >> they use visual studio.net.
> > > >> now, what languages and environments will jaws work with, and not
> > > >> work
> > > >> with,
> > > >> so then i can get an idea, of what i need, and to let the it > > > >> staff,
> > > >> get
> > > >> the
> > > >> right version of jaws for me.
> > > >> using version 6.10, on windows xp pro, sp2, and internet explorer > > > >> 6.
> > > >> if you can let me know, would be very appreciative.
> > > >> cheers marvin.
> > > >> _________________________________________________________________
> > > >> What are you waiting for? Join Lavalife FREE
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> 
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
> > > > stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, > > > > for
> > > > free."
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> > > > __________
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stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
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