Re: programming languages , environments and jaws

  • From: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:44:32 -0500 (EST)

I agree that developers may be reluctant to document changes, so this is
as much a management issue.  FS managers are aware of at least some
changes that developers had to add to the scripting language to
implement new features.  Management should press the developers for as
comprehensive a list as possible about what changes were made to the
language before the next official release.  Script developers are a
constituency that FS should care about informing and serving, since we
help to innovate solutions that please JAWS customers and enhance the
product's reputation.  I know I'm speaking to the choir here ...!

Jamal
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Dennis Brown wrote:

> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:47:33 -0500
> From: Dennis Brown <DennisTBrown@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws
>
> But getting developers to sit down and write the documentation, then send it
> to the documentation staff for inclusion into the manual is an exercise in
> futility that has existed since development began!<g>  How many of us have
> skipped that little task in a project?
> Also, some developers suck at documentation--thinking that the user knows as
> much as they do about the code, and therefore rarely document adequately.
> Would be nice to have a What's New from a scripting standpoint though, but
> the reality is that even the Scripting department stumbles onto new
> functions added by development, but were never made aware of.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Dennis Brown
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Will Pearson" <will@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:25 PM
> Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws
>
>
> > Hi Marlon,
> >
> > I agree that developers need to trust documentation.  I wouldn't go as far
> > as to say that developers should trust the documentation entirely but they
> > should be able to be confident in the accuracy of the documentation.  One
> > problem with documentation is that it can fall behind if it isn't kept up
> > to date and minor details can be left out of the documentation, as I found
> > recently with some documentation from Microsoft.
> >
> > The reliability of documentation really depends on the motivation of the
> > people creating it.  My experience has been that people who create API's
> > as a main part of their business produce pretty good documentation and
> > that documentation tends to be kept up to date whilst people who don't
> > produce API's as a main part of their business tend to have pretty poor
> > documentation.
> >
> > Will
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws
> >
> >
> > Hello Will,
> > Thanks for your explanations. Of corse I do understand all you said,
> > being a component producer and a somewhat experiensed programmer, but
> > you forgot to mention another aspect, which is the documentation.
> > If a jaws scripting function change its behavior or will return a
> > different data, it should be documented. For example, if the rand() C
> > function changed its behavior, let's say, the next version of rand()
> > will return onluy numbers between 1 and 5 from now on, it should be
> > documented.
> > As jaws scripting functions have relatively the same documentation
> > across its versions they in fact are expected to do exactly the
> > samething, sinse the first version they were implemented on.
> > Dennis gave me a good example of a change in how a script could behave
> > differently, but I don't know if this is documented. A developper need
> > to trust in the documentation available, if something changes it
> > should be documented.
> > Marlon
> > 2007/12/8, Will Pearson <will@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >> Hi Marlon,
> >>
> >> You are right to a certain extent.  Functions and classes in programming
> >> generally perform the same task across different versions; however,
> >> programmers can change the task that a function or class performs.  To my
> >> knowledge the only technology that encourages developers to keep the
> >> tasks
> >> that their functions and classes perform the same across versions is
> >> Microsoft's COM, which has the notion of an immutable interface as part
> >> of
> >> its design philosophy.  On the other hand, finding a function or class
> >> that
> >> performs different tasks across different versions is quite hard as
> >> developers tend to create new functions and classes to perform different
> >> tasks.
> >>
> >> The other aspect governing whether functions and classes perform the same
> >> across different versions is implementation.  Developers are often free
> >> to
> >> change how tasks are performed, and this is true for all technologies
> >> including Microsoft's COM.  The more technical programs often take
> >> advantage
> >> of the particular way in which something is implemented to produce
> >> specific
> >> behaviour in that program.  This gives rise to problems when the
> >> implementation details change.
> >>
> >> So, the functions found in JAWS scripting are likely to give the same
> >> behaviourr across different versions but whether they do is due to the
> >> will
> >> of Freedom Scientific.
> >>
> >> Visual Studio 2005 is not entirely reliant on the scripts that have been
> >> produced for it; in fact, the goal was actually to develop Visual Studio
> >> 2005 so that no scripts were needed.  Unfortunately, the versions of JAWS
> >> that were around during the development of Visual Studio 2005 didn't use
> >> MSAA much and their built in MSAA clients had some serious bugs, such as
> >> combining AccName and AccDescription.  So, some scripts were needed to
> >> handle some parts of Visual Studio 2005, such as the code editor.  Most
> >> parts of the Visual Studio 2005 user interface just make use of the
> >> standard
> >> JAWS scripts that JAWS uses by default.  So, changes to these will affect
> >> how JAWS behaves with Visual Studio 2005.
> >>
> >> Will
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 10:31 PM
> >> Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws
> >>
> >>
> >> What I don't understand is the following:
> >> if I use a jaws scripting built in function called a() and this
> >> function is present on jaws from, let's say, 6 and above, and the
> >> documentation says that function a() will return some information,
> >> every script ewhich uses the function a() should act accordingly with
> >> the documentation, and it should act the same way don't mather what
> >> version is used.
> >> Given this, I think, cinse vs 2005 is fully dependant on scripts, vs
> >> .net 2005  should be read the same way in every versions of jaws which
> >> will allow the scripts to compile, I mean that offer suport to the
> >> functions used by these scripts.
> >> The only thing that makes sense for me in explaining why different
> >> versions of jaws act differently is if I assume that the return of
> >> scripting built in functions would be different across them. Is it
> >> right?
> >> Marlon
> >>
> >> 2007/12/8, Will Pearson <will@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >> > Hi Marlon,
> >> >
> >> > I would say that version six of JAWS is probably the minimum version
> >> > for
> >> > use
> >> > with Visual Studio 2005.  Visual Studio 2005 was tested against JAWS
> >> > versions between five and seven as these were the versions that were
> >> > current
> >> > or released during the development of Visual Studio 2005.
> >> >
> >> > The versions of JAWS that were tested against Visual Studio 2005 all
> >> > work
> >> > pretty much the same when used with the scripts; however, there is one
> >> > problem with version five of JAWS that cannot be fixed by the scripts.
> >> > The
> >> > problem is that the off screen model seems to get stuck in an infinite
> >> > loop,
> >> > or performs some other task that seems never ending, when the Solution
> >> > Explorer becomes visible under some circumstances.  The curcumstance
> >> > that
> >> > I
> >> > know that causes this is when the Solution Explorer first becomes
> >> > visible
> >> > after creating an MFC project or upgrading a VC project from an earlier
> >> > version of Visual C++.  This problem doesn't seem to be present in
> >> > versions
> >> > of JAWS later than five.
> >> >
> >> > I can't comment on versions of JAWS above seven from my personal
> >> > experience.
> >> > I don't use JAWS that much these days, and I haven't been inclined to
> >> > keep
> >> > my copy of JAWS up to date.  So, I don't own a copy of version eight.
> >> > If
> >> > the comments that Dennis made about greater use of MSAA are true, and I
> >> > believe them to be given Dennis's former position with Freedom
> >> > Scientific,
> >> > then version eight may be slightly better.
> >> >
> >> > Will
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 8:29 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Do the scripts have a minimum jaws version set to run properly? If the
> >> > scripts can be compiled and used in jaws 6 I see no reazons why jaws 8
> >> > would run better, cinse the scripts will take control of things.
> >> > This is not to contradict you, I am curious.
> >> > Marlon
> >> >
> >> > 2007/12/7, inthaneelf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >> > > Marvin,
> >> > >
> >> > > you might want to take this chance to get your jaws upgraded, I do
> >> > > believe
> >> > > that jaws 8 works better with the vs IDE's than does jaws 6, and you
> >> > > will
> >> > > need the scripts for VS 2005-2008 that are available from my grab bag
> >> > > site
> >> > > (see URL under my name) and can benefit from other materials there
> >> > > for
> >> > > the
> >> > > VS IDE's there as well.
> >> > >
> >> > > good luck,
> >> > > inthane
> >> > > . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
> >> > > Links
> >> > > to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me
> >> > > at:
> >> > > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >> > > . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
> >> > > programming
> >> > > languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
> >> > > http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
> >> > >
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 3:42 AM
> >> > > Subject: Re: programming languages , environments and jaws
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > It will work well with all .net 2003 languages, very well with all
> >> > > > .net 2005 languages, expectedly well with all .net 2008 languages
> >> > > > and
> >> > > > it isn't likely to work with .net 2002 languages. Scripts and or
> >> > > > lug
> >> > > > ins are needed, depending on what version you will be using though.
> >> > > > Marlon
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 2007/12/7, marvin hunkin <marvkin@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Hi.
> >> > > >> looking to do programming at my college for 2008.
> >> > > >> they use visual studio.net.
> >> > > >> now, what languages and environments will jaws work with, and not
> >> > > >> work
> >> > > >> with,
> >> > > >> so then i can get an idea, of what i need, and to let the it
> >> > > >> staff,
> >> > > >> get
> >> > > >> the
> >> > > >> right version of jaws for me.
> >> > > >> using version 6.10, on windows xp pro, sp2, and internet explorer
> >> > > >> 6.
> >> > > >> if you can let me know, would be very appreciative.
> >> > > >> cheers marvin.
> >> > > >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> > > >> What are you waiting for? Join Lavalife FREE
> >> > > >>
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D30288&_t=764581033&_r=email_taglines_Join_free_OCT07&_m=EXT
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
> >> > > > stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
> >> > > > free."
> >> > > > Linus Torvalds
> >> > > > __________
> >> > > > View the list's information and change your settings at
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> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > __________
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> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
> >> > stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
> >> > free."
> >> > Linus Torvalds
> >> > __________
> >> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >> > __________
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> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
> >> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
> >> free."
> >> Linus Torvalds
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
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> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
> > stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
> > free."
> > Linus Torvalds
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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