What is the Email address of where to send any questions I may have for blind programming free list? Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 11:20 AM Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
Hi Rick, I'll just interject here if you don't mind. The issue again is that the web as it stands has a very poor keyboard model; the part of accessibility that often gets forgotten is that not only do we need a DOM that exposes all information about a page programmatically for screen readers to consume, but we need a consistent way of managing focus at the framework level. This would include supporting selection, containers (and bounded focus), linear navigation, text traversal, etc. It's not clear what this would look like since the web is sort of a weird mix between application and document, so there are times when you want to feel like you are moving around a caret while other times you want to "tab" from control to control; some of these controls should be containers such as tables in which you can arrow up/down. This simply hasn't gotten much attention since the majority of users use a pointing device (mouse, trackpad, touch, etc.). Think of the Windows paradigm; you as a screen reader user basically play within a sandbox of windows; within each window, you can tab around and you have common UI elements. This vocabulary is well defined and consistent. However, on the web, there isn't this type of order. AxsJAX imposes this type of order. VoiceOver tries to group DOM elements based on visual layout or DOM hierarchy relationships. However, neither fits to any standard agreed upon by W3C. Thus, the screen reader venders hack up their own proprietary solutions and refuse to change when the web evolves (besides making incremental feature updates to try and workaround new web technologies). Microsoft / others basically then have no recourse to fix anything since any fix would involve breaking existing solutions (look at the very slow adoption of UI Automation). I mean, Jaws is still using win32 to get lots of its on-screen information when they could very well switch much of their hooks to MSAA. On 8/8/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi Ken: Is it an inherrant problem with the Web Accessibility hooks or is ita problem with the Web Designers who layout Web Pages? I know fromdeveloping a couple of pages in VWD that I can make a page accessible with some extra work and by not using some canned cUI controls but I don't think most sighted designers, especially overseas, worry about that too much. Even the thousands of programmers at Google worry about accessibility after the fact when they put up a new application and that makes adding accessibility dificult and sometimes impossible without crazy modifications. For example, if the list of links in a mail program were inside a DropDown list you couldhave the ability to select a group, or all, the links using the cursor orthe mouse and then hit a button or hot key to delete, copy or otherwise workwith the selected group. That would be as fast as anything I can think of for that feature. I haven't done much with dynamic links and data but Ishould think that once they are in the dom they should be available for thattype of "desktop" actionability. I am waiting until the guys at GW Microcome out with their COM interface to see how they handle things. My biggest concern is exactly what you have described. Limited accessibility ten times slower than sighted access is still accessibility achieved legally I guess.I am not so sure about not having Government / Industry based standards enforcable by law and eliminating the accessibility foundation diferencesbetween major players like IBM and Microsoft when it comes to the technicalhooks. One standard instead of IAccessible2 and, or, UIA and or other versions of Web Accessibility hooking models. As it now stands a screen reader has to handle the very complex interfaces for web apps and desktopapps, differing Operating System requirements, Diferent methods of dexposingAccessibility information and all the variants of Website Accessibilityincluding JavaScript, CSS and Dynamic Html, AVI and Animation and all thatjazz.IBM won't agree with Microsoft who won't agree with Google and so on. So weget Research Project after Research Project to describe the bestAccessibility methodology and the Accessibility community applaud when eachnew white paper is released but nothing, or comparitivly little ever gets done. Where is the common accessibility standards between a Linux, IBM, based app and a UIA - Microsoft app? What about diferent browsers and diferent versions of each browser and related JS, CSS and other new technicals? It is still the Wild West out there when it comes toaccessibility and the Screen Reader companies arefloundering to figure out how to handle all the crazyness that is International Corporate Egos when itcomes to Accessibility Practices me thinks. Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 10:20 PM Subject: RE: .Net Framework DocumentationI am speaking only of the interface. Not the languages the web is writtenin. When it comes right down to it we do not interface with php, pearl,asp. We interface with html weather it is served by Javascript or just aclean page of html. The html is what needs to have a blind friendly UI stuck on the front. That can mean ear cons like system access has or voice schema's like jaws but those seem to be more candy than actual helpful information. You say Firefox and Internet Explorer are very accessible I say go to www.gmail.com a very accessible site and delete 246 emails. It took me forever. My wife had over 1000 and was finished in less than 5 minutes.I don't even know how long it took her because she was done before I could time her. If I am in outlook and want to delete all the mails from one email list I do a quick search and ctrl-a and delete they are gone. . Trythat on a web interface. For the sighted user many of these web interfaces look exactly like a regular application. To us they look like nasty web rather than easy to use dialogs. Another example of what I am talking aboutis the Google Rss reader or Google docs. My sited friends that code withme at work all use Google Rss now because it's an easy way for them to readtheir news at work home or on the go with their Cell phone. To them using Google Rss is as easy as me using the rss groups I have set up in Outlookor other applications designed for rss because they can act on the groups with drags of their mouse right on the web as if it was a true list try that with a screen reader. Same for Google docs. Sure you can use it but Ichallenge you to go make a document on google docs set up a table put someitems in the table and then put headers before and after the table. See how long that takes you even if you can get it done over how long it would take you in something like word.What I am saying in short is the web right now might be accessible but itsure is a bitch to use in many cases. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine MossSent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 8:14 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation I mean firefox and internet explorer are both very accessible. What do you mean that we need to find out a whole new way to work the web for the blind.You mean to drop the technology that we've been used to for years? Do youmean no more PHP, no more Perl, no more ASP.net? -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:44 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation I will second some of what people are saying here. MSDN is very nice online. The problem is to this day no screen reader has made the web aseasy to use for the blind as it is for the sited. A new way to deal with the web has to be designed and I am not even sure what that new way is butI think that is where we have to be putting all our power. Making the web asaccessible as regular programs because that is where regular programs aregoing. We should be able to use Google docs as simply as opening Word same for gmail my wife doesn't even use a mail client any longer because the webclients are getting so good. You sure the hell couldn't prove that to me but I don't blame the web apps as much as I do all the screen readers andI mean all. If people have ideas on how to make a better web browser interface for the blind please write me and tell me I have several projects I am working on that this information would come in handy. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine MossSent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:09 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: .Net Framework DocumentationMSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all whowant to use it? -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up a browser and kept it at msdn.com. I pretty much had entered class names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members (fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc). It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's just one extra step. VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering. On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once youlearn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are prettyhelpful.They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do containexamples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods and procedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations withsomeexamples.The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know what aclass is you can read what each class does, what it's methods andPropertiesdo and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on usingaparticular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords to Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for third party articles on that method or property as used in a similar example to the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in helpfeature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to useIntellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any examplesorexplanations of what selected methods or properties do. You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages as hyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS andthenget to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like having those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other MSDNpages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favoritesfolderor even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of referencematerials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning toolthan the Reference Manual. . Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use. Thereare usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and now2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manual the embedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that same version of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like theProgrammer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go fromthere or the Library Heading Page.. I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use theirdocs for reference and to learn new features since I already know most ofwhat is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and eventsforthe VS features I use.Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and it'srelated features and VWD 2008 etc... Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Kerneels Roos To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation Hi everyone, I was just wondering how other people experienced working with theMicrosoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks they were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more productive process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all orcomplaining about it, just looking for advice :-).It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about howinaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this special right to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's aprivilegerather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make their stuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain from spending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do itwelleven. If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorerforexample, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can bedonewith a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particularprogramis easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted peopledoes,but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the screen properly.Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get knownforbeing super cooperative with companies in their drive to make theirsoftwareaccessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member of the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their mounths to complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and harder to make their products inclusive?And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to make them try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Y tocreate competing software that are in fact better and more accessible-- company Y could add value.I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously offer their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's all try ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happen to ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's notmoan and complain -- life's too short. OK, enough complaining about complaining! Enjoy the adventure of programming! On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: I'm on 11.0. From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield,Tyler Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: .Net Framework DocumentationThey seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running? Ratherthan blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first. ----- Original Message ----- From: Katherine Moss To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation I'll tell you, I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferences stuff. Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via documentexplorer.I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes theyhave provided for accessibility in their own software! From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels RoosSent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM To: programmingblind Subject: .Net Framework Documentation Hi List, Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .NetFramework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer that ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can getatthe information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with theolder style CHM files that works great with JAWS.Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just the.Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format?I'vesearched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download as ofyet. Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I manage to navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around withtheJAWS cursor and so on... If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most welcome! Regards -- Kerneels Roos Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 Skype: cornelis.roos The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets thecheese!__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virussignature database 5345 (20100805) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virussignature database 5345 (20100805) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5347 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5347 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Kerneels Roos Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 Skype: cornelis.roosThe early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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