It works -fine-. msdn's website is a bit cluttered admittedly, but after you get used to it (which the sighted people have to do also), it works. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Moss" <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:09 AM Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
MSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all who want to use it? -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up a browser and kept it at msdn.com. I pretty much had entered class names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members (fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc). It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's just one extra step. VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering. On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once you learn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are prettyhelpful.They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do contain examples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods and procedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations withsomeexamples. The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know what a class is you can read what each class does, what it's methods andPropertiesdo and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on usingaparticular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords to Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for third party articles on that method or property as used in a similar example to the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in help feature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to use Intellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any examplesorexplanations of what selected methods or properties do. You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages as hyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS andthenget to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like having those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other MSDN pages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favoritesfolderor even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of reference materials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning tool than the Reference Manual. .Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use. Thereare usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and now2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manual theembedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that same version of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like the Programmer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go from there or the Library Heading Page..I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use theirdocs for reference and to learn new features since I already know most of what is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and eventsforthe VS features I use. Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and it's related features and VWD 2008 etc... Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Kerneels Roos To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation Hi everyone, I was just wondering how other people experienced working with the Microsoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks they were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more productive process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all or complaining about it, just looking for advice :-). It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about howinaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this specialright to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's aprivilegerather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make theirstuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain from spending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do itwelleven. If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorerforexample, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can bedonewith a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particularprogramis easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted peopledoes,but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the screen properly. Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get knownforbeing super cooperative with companies in their drive to make theirsoftwareaccessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member of the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their mounthsto complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and harder to make their products inclusive? And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to make them try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Y to create competing software that are in fact better and more accessible-- company Y could add value. I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously offer their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's all try ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happen to ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's not moan and complain -- life's too short. OK, enough complaining about complaining! Enjoy the adventure of programming! On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: I'm on 11.0. From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation They seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running? Rather than blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first. ----- Original Message ----- From: Katherine Moss To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation I'll tell you, I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferences stuff. Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via documentexplorer.I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes they have provided for accessibility in their own software! From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM To: programmingblind Subject: .Net Framework Documentation Hi List, Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .Net Framework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer that ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can getatthe information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with the older style CHM files that works great with JAWS. Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just the .Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format?I'vesearched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download as of yet.Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I manageto navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around withtheJAWS cursor and so on... If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most welcome! Regards -- Kerneels Roos Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 Skype: cornelis.roos The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets thecheese!__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5345 (20100805) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5345 (20100805) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5347 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5347 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Kerneels Roos Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 Skype: cornelis.roos The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signaturedatabase 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signaturedatabase 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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