Re: .Net Framework Documentation

Hi Guys: I think allot of the problem is with the Web Designers not applying accessibility design up front. When they finally get a request to make their sites accessible they are well beyond being able to do that in any cost effective manner. The whole way accessibility is handled is the problem in my opinion. We have the Major Development Software Providers making their Development Software to facillitate accessibility in one manner or another. Then the Independent Web Developers either make use of them, if they have a reason to do so, or not if they don't feel a compelling need to do so. At that point we have the Independent Screen Reader companies trying to build code to access the Web using IA1, IA2, MSAA or UIA or whatever else is out there. They not only have to do it for a Screen reader but for braille and magnification devices and now mobile devices. They have to continue to support legacy code for the old style accessibility, the diferent versiions of everything and add new code to work with the new versions of everything without breaking the older versions and have their apps know which version of what to use when, not a easy thing to do for small under capitalized very low margin companies. So, we get all kinds of new standards every year or so, it takes the Web Masters a year to implement them, if they even ever implement them and the Screen Reader companies another year to implement the changes they get complaints about from their users. By the time the changes flow through the entire chain the "new" standards, some, or many, of them are obsolete and slated for obsolescence. Also, the screen reader companies all handle their products in diferent ways so that it is most dificult to get any agreement among the blind community on how the Development Software vendors and Web Masters need to implement apps to make them work with the accessibility software.. There is no firm hand at the wheel and standards and implementation just flounder around controlled by individual interests of the various companies involved while the users, us, have to live with the results of their personal infighting. So, that's my thoughts on the subject. Nothing will get any better until, and unless, there are more uniform and enforcable standards put in place and in today's economic and political situation that is about as likely as blind folks taking control of the government and the Supreme Court. Outside of that we are just tinkering around the edges of the problem, trying to stay afloat in this visual orientated world. If not for the pressures on some government and corporate entities by various groups and individuals we would have nothing. Oh well it is what it is so I'll make do with WindowEyes, my ScreenReader of choice, for now.

Rick USA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation


Hi Rick,  I'll just interject here if you don't mind.  The issue again
is that the web as it stands has a very poor keyboard model; the part
of accessibility that often gets forgotten is that not only do we need
a DOM that exposes all information about a page programmatically for
screen readers to consume, but we need a consistent way of managing
focus at the framework level.  This would include supporting
selection, containers (and bounded focus), linear navigation, text
traversal, etc.  It's not clear what this would look like since the
web is sort of a weird mix between application and document, so there
are times when you want to feel like you are moving around a caret
while other times you want to "tab" from control to control; some of
these controls should be containers such as tables in which you can
arrow up/down.  This simply hasn't gotten much attention since the
majority of users use a pointing device (mouse, trackpad, touch,
etc.).

Think of the Windows paradigm; you as a screen reader user basically
play within a sandbox of windows; within each window, you can tab
around and you have common UI elements.  This vocabulary is well
defined and consistent.  However, on the web, there isn't this type of
order.  AxsJAX imposes this type of order.  VoiceOver tries to group
DOM elements based on visual layout or DOM hierarchy relationships.
However, neither fits to any standard agreed upon by W3C.  Thus, the
screen reader venders hack up their own proprietary solutions and
refuse to change when the web evolves (besides making incremental
feature updates to try and workaround new web technologies).
Microsoft / others basically then have no recourse to fix anything
since any fix would involve breaking existing solutions (look at the
very slow adoption of UI Automation).  I mean, Jaws is still using
win32 to get lots of its on-screen information when they could very
well switch much of their hooks to MSAA.




On 8/8/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Ken: Is it an inherrant problem with the Web Accessibility hooks or is it
a problem with the Web Designers who layout Web Pages? I know from
developing a couple of pages in VWD that I can make a page accessible with some extra work and by not using some canned cUI controls but I don't think most sighted designers, especially overseas, worry about that too much. Even the thousands of programmers at Google worry about accessibility after the fact when they put up a new application and that makes adding accessibility dificult and sometimes impossible without crazy modifications. For example, if the list of links in a mail program were inside a DropDown list you could
have the ability to select a group, or all, the links using the cursor or
the mouse and then hit a button or hot key to delete, copy or otherwise work
with the selected group. That would be as fast as anything I can think of
for that feature. I haven't done much with dynamic links and data but I
should think that once they are in the dom they should be available for that
type of "desktop" actionability. I am waiting until the guys at GW Micro
come out with their COM interface to see how they handle things. My biggest concern is exactly what you have described. Limited accessibility ten times slower than sighted access is still accessibility achieved legally I guess.
I am not so sure about not having Government / Industry based standards
enforcable by law and eliminating the accessibility foundation diferences
between major players like IBM and Microsoft when it comes to the technical
hooks. One standard instead of IAccessible2 and, or, UIA and or other
versions of Web Accessibility hooking models. As it now stands a screen
reader has to handle the very complex interfaces for web apps and desktop
apps, differing Operating System requirements, Diferent methods of dexposing
Accessibility information and all the variants of Website Accessibility
including JavaScript, CSS and Dynamic Html, AVI and Animation and all that
jazz.
IBM won't agree with Microsoft who won't agree with Google and so on. So we
get Research Project after Research Project to describe the best
Accessibility methodology and the Accessibility community applaud when each
new white paper is released but nothing, or comparitivly little ever gets
done. Where is the common accessibility standards between a Linux, IBM,
based app and a UIA - Microsoft app? What about diferent browsers and
diferent versions of each browser and related JS, CSS and other new
technicals? It is still the Wild West out there when it comes to
accessibility and the Screen Reader companies arefloundering to figure out how to handle all the crazyness that is International Corporate Egos when it
comes to Accessibility Practices me thinks.
Rick USA


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 10:20 PM
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation


I am speaking only of the interface. Not the languages the web is written
in.  When it comes right down to it we do not interface with php, pearl,
asp. We interface with html weather it is served by Javascript or just a
clean page of html.  The html is what needs to have a blind friendly UI
stuck on the front.  That can mean ear cons like system access has or
voice
schema's like jaws but those seem to be more candy than actual helpful
information.

You say Firefox and   Internet Explorer are very accessible I say go to
www.gmail.com a very accessible site and delete 246 emails.  It took me
forever.  My wife had over 1000 and was finished in less than 5 minutes.
I don't even know how long it took her because she was done before I could time her. If I am in outlook and want to delete all the mails from one email list I do a quick search and ctrl-a and delete they are gone. . Try
that on a web interface.   For the sighted user many of these web
interfaces
look exactly like a regular application. To us they look like nasty web
rather than easy to use dialogs.  Another example of what I am talking
about
is the Google Rss reader or Google docs. My sited friends that code with
me
at work all use Google Rss now because it's an easy way for them to read
their news at work home or on the go with their Cell phone. To them using Google Rss is as easy as me using the rss groups I have set up in Outlook
or
other applications designed for rss because they can act on the groups
with
drags of their mouse right on the web  as if it was a true list try that
with a screen reader.  Same for Google docs.  Sure you can use it but I
challenge you to go make a document on google docs set up a table put some
items in the table and then put headers before and after the table.  See
how
long that takes you even if you can get it done over how long it would
take
you in something like word.

What I am saying in short is the web right now might be accessible but it
sure is a bitch to use in many cases.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 8:14 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation

I mean firefox and internet explorer are both very accessible.  What do
you
mean that we need to find out a whole new way to work the web for the
blind.
You mean to drop the technology that we've been used to for years? Do you
mean no more PHP, no more Perl, no more ASP.net?

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:44 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation

I will second some of what people are saying here.  MSDN is very nice
online.  The problem is to this day no screen reader has made the web as
easy to use for the blind as it is for the sited. A new way to deal with the web has to be designed and I am not even sure what that new way is but

I
think that is where we have to be putting all our power.  Making the web
as
accessible as regular programs because that is where regular programs are
going.  We should be able to use Google docs as simply as opening Word
same
for gmail my wife doesn't even use a mail client any longer because the
web
clients are getting so good. You sure the hell couldn't prove that to me but I don't blame the web apps as much as I do all the screen readers and
I
mean all.  If people have ideas on how to make a better web browser
interface for the blind please write me and tell me I have several
projects
I am working on that this information would come in handy.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:09 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation

MSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all who
want to use it?

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation

When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up
a browser and kept it at msdn.com.  I pretty much had entered class
names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members
(fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc).

It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's
just one extra step.  VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but
Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering.

On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once you
learn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are pretty
helpful.
They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do contain
examples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods and
procedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations with
some
examples.
The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know what a
class is you can read what each class does, what it's methods and
Properties
do and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on
using
a
particular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords to Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for third party articles on that method or property as used in a similar example to the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in help
feature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to use
Intellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any examples
or
explanations of what selected methods or properties do.
  You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages as
hyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS and
then
get to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like having those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other MSDN
pages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favorites
folder
or even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of reference
materials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning tool
than the Reference Manual. .
  Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use.
There
are usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and now
2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manual
the
embedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that same
version of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like the
Programmer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go from
there or the Library Heading Page..
  I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use
their
docs for reference and to learn new features since I already know most of
what is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and events
for
the VS features I use.
Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and it's
related features and VWD 2008 etc...
  Rick USA
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Kerneels Roos
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM
  Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation


  Hi everyone,

  I was just wondering how other people experienced working with the
Microsoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks they were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more productive process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all or
complaining about it, just looking for advice :-).

It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about how
inaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this
special
right to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's a
privilege
rather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make
their
stuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain from
spending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do it
well
even.

  If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorer
for
example, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that
program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can be
done
with a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particular
program
is easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted people
does,
but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the
screen properly.

Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get known
for
being super cooperative with companies in their drive to make their
software
accessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member
of
the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their
mounths
to complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and
harder to make their products inclusive?

And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to make them try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Y to
create competing software that are in fact better and more accessible--
company Y could add value.

I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously offer their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's all try ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happen to ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's not
moan and complain -- life's too short.

  OK, enough complaining about complaining!

  Enjoy the adventure of programming!




  On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss
<plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

    I'm on 11.0.



    From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
Tyler
    Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation



They seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running? Rather
than blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first.

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Katherine Moss

      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

      Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM

      Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation



      I'll tell you,

      I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferences
stuff.  Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via document
explorer.
I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes they
have provided for accessibility in their own software!



      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos
      Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM
      To: programmingblind
      Subject: .Net Framework Documentation



      Hi List,

      Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .Net
Framework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer that ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can get
at
the information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with the
older style CHM files that works great with JAWS.

Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just the
.Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format?
I've
searched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download as of
yet.

      Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I
manage
to navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around with
the
JAWS cursor and so on...


      If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most
welcome!

      Regards


      --
      Kerneels Roos
      Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
      Skype: cornelis.roos

      The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
cheese!





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  --
  Kerneels Roos
  Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
  Skype: cornelis.roos

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!



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