Re: .Net Framework Documentation

  • From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacobk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 07:04:30 +0200

Not necessarily related, but the google I use is the specifically accessible interface: 

http://labs.google.com/accessible/
It also ranks search results a bit differently related to the WCAG accessibility standard as well.
and, on GMail, under settings, there's an option to turn on a simpler/accessible interface, and it remembers that setting for your account across different machines - yes, I do also have a GMail email address, along with around 7 others I use for different things... 

Stay well

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
'...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation



Hi Catherine,

I don't think we're disputing the way Jaws or any other Windows screen
reader's present the web in an accessible format.  The issue at hand
is that the way you experience an html page is drastically different
from the visual presentation of it.

Take for example a site as simple as Google.com.  Many Jaws users may
be shocked to find out that the page has distinct groupings (the top
of the page has links going from left to right with various google
properties, the middle of the page has search related functions, and
the bottom has some misc info).

Instead, Jaws presents what looks like a document; many screen reader
users simply line down a page (that's why each link is placed on a new
line).

If you pick the webpage to be something more complex such as
nytimes.com, or something more application centric like gmail.com,
this becomes tremendously tedious since you'll be doing a lot of
lining down and "find" searches.  I realize the screen reader venders
have come up with bookmarking, but it's like a band-aid on a
fundamental problem; we need better focus management from the people
who know where focus should be placed (i.e. the web page developers).
Don't you find it ridiculas that when you click on an article in msdn
or nytimes, you then have the daunting task of finding the beginning
of the content you wish to read (beyond the banner/sidebar links).

In your example, why can't you simply tab to a table?  Why are there
screen reader specific commands to move from cell to cell or row by
row?  Should the table even be seen as a table if it's used as layout?
Why can't there be tables that act more like the listviews in native
Windows windows?



I have no problem reaching tables using the commands built into JAWS and
system Access. Do you mean that the browser itself should support keyboard 
commands?


I think we're advocating from the venders to start adapting to a more
DOM styled approach which will scale far better for web 2.0 properties
and move away from virtual buffering.  In other words, begin treating
the web more like native app's than a "virtual" document with tack on
extensions to try and cope with the tide of new changes in web
technologies today.


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:09 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation

Ken,

I agree with your comments.  Unfortunately, the web has evolved in
such a way that the major browser venders (IE, FF, Safari, etc) have
not been focused on the keyboard as a first class interaction method.
Just think about how we navigate today on the web; browsers are
severely limited.  We can pretty much tab through links and interact
with a few form controls using arrow navigation.  What about tables,
div's, dynamic javascript, etc?  Why shouldn't the browsers support
these controls and implement a keyboard model to reach these DOM
elements?

Thus, it's left to the screen reader venders to "adapt" this to meet
our needs; as a big hack and somewhat natural evolution of these
vender's focus on text, they come up with virtual buffering.  Once
upon a time, when the web was centered around documents, this was
great.  However, the web has become much more interactive and this
model really does fail.

If any of you are interested, I'm actually a contributer to Chrome and
am interested in any thoughts in which you feel like we can adapt the
browser itself to meet our needs.

On 8/7/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I will second some of what people are saying here.  MSDN is very nice
online.  The problem is to this day no screen reader has made the web as
easy to use for the blind as it is for the sited. A new way to deal with the web has to be designed and I am not even sure what that new way is but 
I

think that is where we have to be putting all our power.  Making the web

as
accessible as regular programs because that is where regular programs are 
going.  We should be able to use Google docs as simply as opening Word

same

for gmail my wife doesn't even use a mail client any longer because the

web
clients are getting so good. You sure the hell couldn't prove that to me but I don't blame the web apps as much as I do all the screen readers and 
I

mean all.  If people have ideas on how to make a better web browser
interface for the blind please write me and tell me I have several

projects

I am working on that this information would come in handy.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss 
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:09 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
MSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all who 
want to use it?

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation

When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up
a browser and kept it at msdn.com.  I pretty much had entered class
names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members
(fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc).

It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's
just one extra step.  VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but
Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering.

On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once you 
learn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are pretty

helpful.
They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do contain 
examples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods and
procedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations with

some

examples.
The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know what a 
class is you can read what each class does, what it's methods and

Properties

do and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on

using

a
particular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords to Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for third party articles on that method or property as used in a similar example to the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in help 
feature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to use
Intellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any examples 
or

explanations of what selected methods or properties do.
  You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages as
hyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS and

then
get to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like having those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other MSDN 
pages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favorites

folder

or even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of reference
materials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning tool 
than the Reference Manual. .
  Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use.

There
are usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and now 
2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manual

the

embedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that same
version of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like the
Programmer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go from 
there or the Library Heading Page..
  I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use

their
docs for reference and to learn new features since I already know most of 
what is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and events

for

the VS features I use.
Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and it's 
related features and VWD 2008 etc...
  Rick USA
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Kerneels Roos
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM
  Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation


  Hi everyone,

  I was just wondering how other people experienced working with the
Microsoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks they were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more productive process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all or 
complaining about it, just looking for advice :-).
It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about how 
inaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this

special

right to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's a

privilege

rather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make

their

stuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain from
spending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do it

well

even.

  If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorer

for

example, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that
program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can be

done

with a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particular

program

is easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted people

does,

but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the
screen properly.
Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get known 
for

being super cooperative with companies in their drive to make their

software

accessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member

of

the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their

mounths

to complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and
harder to make their products inclusive?
And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to make them try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Y to 
create competing software that are in fact better and more accessible--
company Y could add value.
I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously offer their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's all try ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happen to ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's not 
moan and complain -- life's too short.

  OK, enough complaining about complaining!

  Enjoy the adventure of programming!




  On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss
<plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

    I'm on 11.0.



    From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield, 
Tyler
    Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
They seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running? Rather 
than blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first.

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Katherine Moss

      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

      Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM

      Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation



      I'll tell you,

      I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferences
stuff.  Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via document

explorer.
I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes they 
have provided for accessibility in their own software!



      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos 
      Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM
      To: programmingblind
      Subject: .Net Framework Documentation



      Hi List,

      Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .Net
Framework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer that ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can get 
at
the information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with the 
older style CHM files that works great with JAWS.
Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just the 
.Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format?

I've
searched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download as of 
yet.

      Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I

manage

to navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around with

the

JAWS cursor and so on...


      If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most
welcome!

      Regards


      --
      Kerneels Roos
      Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
      Skype: cornelis.roos

      The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the

cheese!
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  --
  Kerneels Roos
  Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
  Skype: cornelis.roos
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese! 




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