I never said that you could not with any screen reader I said that no screen reader makes the web as easy to use for us as it is for the sighted. I use system access as my second screen reader but I still would not use Gmail on the web with it because it's a nasty interface. I take twice as long as a sighted person to checkout of a online shopping site but I do it because it's the only game in town. If you tell me you ease the web as easily as a sighted person I will call you a liar even if that is strong language that is the truth. We maybe never get web working as good for us as it is for the sighted user but there are things that we can do to make the interface better One of the things we can do is get all the web browser interfaces to be somewhat alike. You might say no that is what is so good about a web browser is this one is easier than that one. I will tell you this though a sighted person can pull up Opra, Firefox, Internet Explorer, and some open source free web browser no one has heard of and instantly interact with it. We as blind users always spend more of our time trying to learn how to use an interface rather than just using it. There has to be a better way. Yes I am just ranting but that is because the web is one area we can actually create an interface for ourselves. The web was designed to be reformatted for the device or application you are using so we should be able to make the experience as good for us as anyone else. Of course we should also be able to live together in harmony but I think we have a better chance of at least getting a much better interface than we have so far. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 8:17 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation I have no problem reaching tables using the commands built into JAWS and system Access. Do you mean that the browser itself should support keyboard commands? -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:09 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation Ken, I agree with your comments. Unfortunately, the web has evolved in such a way that the major browser venders (IE, FF, Safari, etc) have not been focused on the keyboard as a first class interaction method. Just think about how we navigate today on the web; browsers are severely limited. We can pretty much tab through links and interact with a few form controls using arrow navigation. What about tables, div's, dynamic javascript, etc? Why shouldn't the browsers support these controls and implement a keyboard model to reach these DOM elements? Thus, it's left to the screen reader venders to "adapt" this to meet our needs; as a big hack and somewhat natural evolution of these vender's focus on text, they come up with virtual buffering. Once upon a time, when the web was centered around documents, this was great. However, the web has become much more interactive and this model really does fail. If any of you are interested, I'm actually a contributer to Chrome and am interested in any thoughts in which you feel like we can adapt the browser itself to meet our needs. On 8/7/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > I will second some of what people are saying here. MSDN is very nice > online. The problem is to this day no screen reader has made the web as > easy to use for the blind as it is for the sited. A new way to deal with > the web has to be designed and I am not even sure what that new way is but I > think that is where we have to be putting all our power. Making the web as > accessible as regular programs because that is where regular programs are > going. We should be able to use Google docs as simply as opening Word same > for gmail my wife doesn't even use a mail client any longer because the web > clients are getting so good. You sure the hell couldn't prove that to me > but I don't blame the web apps as much as I do all the screen readers and I > mean all. If people have ideas on how to make a better web browser > interface for the blind please write me and tell me I have several projects > I am working on that this information would come in handy. > > Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:09 PM > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation > > MSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all who > want to use it? > > -----Original Message----- > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation > > When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up > a browser and kept it at msdn.com. I pretty much had entered class > names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members > (fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc). > > It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's > just one extra step. VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but > Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering. > > On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once you >> learn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are pretty > helpful. >> They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do contain >> examples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods and >> procedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations with > some >> examples. >> The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know what a >> class is you can read what each class does, what it's methods and > Properties >> do and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on using > a >> particular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords to >> Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for third >> party articles on that method or property as used in a similar example to >> the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in help >> feature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to use >> Intellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any examples > or >> explanations of what selected methods or properties do. >> You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages as >> hyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS and > then >> get to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like having >> those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other MSDN >> pages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favorites > folder >> or even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of reference >> materials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning tool >> than the Reference Manual. . >> Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use. There >> are usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and now >> 2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manual the >> embedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that same >> version of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like the >> Programmer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go from >> there or the Library Heading Page.. >> I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use their >> docs for reference and to learn new features since I already know most of >> what is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and events > for >> the VS features I use. >> Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and it's >> related features and VWD 2008 etc... >> Rick USA >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kerneels Roos >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM >> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation >> >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I was just wondering how other people experienced working with the >> Microsoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks they >> were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more productive >> process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all or >> complaining about it, just looking for advice :-). >> >> It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about how >> inaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this special >> right to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's a > privilege >> rather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make their >> stuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain from >> spending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do it > well >> even. >> >> If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorer > for >> example, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that >> program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can be > done >> with a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particular > program >> is easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted people > does, >> but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the >> screen properly. >> >> Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get known > for >> being super cooperative with companies in their drive to make their > software >> accessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member of >> the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their mounths >> to complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and >> harder to make their products inclusive? >> >> And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to make >> them try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Y to >> create competing software that are in fact better and more accessible-- >> company Y could add value. >> >> I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously offer >> their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's all >> try ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happen to >> ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's not >> moan and complain -- life's too short. >> >> OK, enough complaining about complaining! >> >> Enjoy the adventure of programming! >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss >> <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> I'm on 11.0. >> >> >> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >> Tyler >> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation >> >> >> >> They seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running? Rather >> than blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Katherine Moss >> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM >> >> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation >> >> >> >> I'll tell you, >> >> I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferences >> stuff. Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via document > explorer. >> I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes they >> have provided for accessibility in their own software! >> >> >> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos >> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM >> To: programmingblind >> Subject: .Net Framework Documentation >> >> >> >> Hi List, >> >> Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .Net >> Framework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer that >> ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can get > at >> the information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with the >> older style CHM files that works great with JAWS. >> >> Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just the >> .Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format? > I've >> searched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download as of >> yet. >> >> Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I manage >> to navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around with > the >> JAWS cursor and so on... >> >> >> If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most >> welcome! >> >> Regards >> >> >> -- >> Kerneels Roos >> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 >> Skype: cornelis.roos >> >> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the > cheese! >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 5345 (20100805) __________ >> >> >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 5345 (20100805) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 5347 (20100806) __________ >> >> >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 5347 (20100806) __________ >> >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Kerneels Roos >> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 >> Skype: cornelis.roos >> >> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese! >> >> >> > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5348 (20100806) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5348 (20100806) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind