Could you please give me the Email address where to write any questions ? Thanks! ----- Original Message ----- From: "RicksPlace" <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 12:34 PM Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
Ken, you have nailed it. My solution is strict laws regarding accessibility.If all the Software Developers, the Microsoft and Linux guys have 100million users complain that they can not afford to modify the accessibility fields and 50 blind users complain that they should enforce the rules guesswho wins? Any time you have a minority requesting something in a Democracy it issubject to the whim of the majority and we are a very small minority. There are ways of a minority making it's demands heard and accepted but sometimesthey are mucky to get done by middle class folks.In the meantime we still have to hold out our tin cups and ask for donationsfrom the Software Industry and Web Developers. Rick USA----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 12:08 PM Subject: RE: .Net Framework DocumentationWe agree, but I lay it at the tool kits feet the designer will do nothing they are not forced to do. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 11:57 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation Hi Guys: I think allot of the problem is with the Web Designers not applying accessibility design up front. When they finally get a request to make their sites accessible they are well beyond being able to do that in any costeffective manner. The whole way accessibility is handled is the problem inmy opinion. We have the Major Development Software Providers making their Development Software to facillitate accessibility in one manner or another. Then the Independent Web Developers either make use of them, if they have a reason to do so, or not if they don't feel a compelling need to do so. Atthat point we have the Independent Screen Reader companies trying to build code to access the Web using IA1, IA2, MSAA or UIA or whatever else is out there. They not only have to do it for a Screen reader but for braille andmagnification devices and now mobile devices. They have to continue to support legacy code for the old style accessibility, the diferent versiionsof everything and add new code to work with the new versions of everything without breaking the older versions and have their apps know which versionof what to use when, not a easy thing to do for small under capitalized very low margin companies. So, we get all kinds of new standards every year or so, it takes the Web Masters a year to implement them, if they even ever implement them and the Screen Reader companies another year to implement the changes they get complaints about from their users. By the time the changes flow through the entire chain the "new" standards, some, or many, of them are obsolete and slated for obsolescence. Also, the screen reader companies all handle their products in diferent ways so that it is most dificult to get any agreement among the blind community on how the Development Software vendors and Web Masters need to implement apps to make them work with the accessibility software.. There is no firm hand at the wheel and standardsand implementation just flounder around controlled by individual interestsof the various companies involved while the users, us, have to live with the results of their personal infighting. So, that's my thoughts on the subject. Nothing will get any better until, and unless, there are more uniform and enforcable standards put in place and in today's economic and political situation that is about as likely as blind folks taking control of the government and the Supreme Court. Outside of that we are just tinkering around the edges of the problem, trying to stay afloat in this visual orientated world. If not for the pressures on some government and corporate entities by various groups and individuals we would have nothing. Oh well it is what it is so I'll make do with WindowEyes, my ScreenReader of choice, for now. Rick USA----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 11:20 AM Subject: Re: .Net Framework DocumentationHi Rick, I'll just interject here if you don't mind. The issue again is that the web as it stands has a very poor keyboard model; the part of accessibility that often gets forgotten is that not only do we need a DOM that exposes all information about a page programmatically for screen readers to consume, but we need a consistent way of managing focus at the framework level. This would include supporting selection, containers (and bounded focus), linear navigation, text traversal, etc. It's not clear what this would look like since the web is sort of a weird mix between application and document, so there are times when you want to feel like you are moving around a caret while other times you want to "tab" from control to control; some of these controls should be containers such as tables in which you can arrow up/down. This simply hasn't gotten much attention since the majority of users use a pointing device (mouse, trackpad, touch, etc.). Think of the Windows paradigm; you as a screen reader user basically play within a sandbox of windows; within each window, you can tab around and you have common UI elements. This vocabulary is well defined and consistent. However, on the web, there isn't this type of order. AxsJAX imposes this type of order. VoiceOver tries to group DOM elements based on visual layout or DOM hierarchy relationships. However, neither fits to any standard agreed upon by W3C. Thus, the screen reader venders hack up their own proprietary solutions and refuse to change when the web evolves (besides making incremental feature updates to try and workaround new web technologies). Microsoft / others basically then have no recourse to fix anything since any fix would involve breaking existing solutions (look at the very slow adoption of UI Automation). I mean, Jaws is still using win32 to get lots of its on-screen information when they could very well switch much of their hooks to MSAA. On 8/8/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi Ken: Is it an inherrant problem with the Web Accessibility hooks or isit a problem with the Web Designers who layout Web Pages? I know from developing a couple of pages in VWD that I can make a page accessible with some extra work and by not using some canned cUI controls but I don't think most sighted designers, especially overseas, worry about that too much. Even the thousands of programmers at Google worry about accessibility after the fact when they put up a new application and that makes adding accessibility dificult and sometimes impossible without crazy modifications. For example, if the list of links in a mail program were inside a DropDown list you could have the ability to select a group, or all, the links using the cursor or the mouse and then hit a button or hot key to delete, copy or otherwise work with the selected group. That would be as fast as anything I can think of for that feature. I haven't done much with dynamic links and data but I should think that once they are in the dom they should be available for thattype of "desktop" actionability. I am waiting until the guys at GW Microcome out with their COM interface to see how they handle things. My biggest concern is exactly what you have described. Limited accessibility ten times slower than sighted access is still accessibility achieved legally I guess. I am not so sure about not having Government / Industry based standards enforcable by law and eliminating the accessibility foundation diferences between major players like IBM and Microsoft when it comes to the technical hooks. One standard instead of IAccessible2 and, or, UIA and or other versions of Web Accessibility hooking models. As it now stands a screen reader has to handle the very complex interfaces for web apps and desktop apps, differing Operating System requirements, Diferent methods of dexposing Accessibility information and all the variants of Website Accessibility including JavaScript, CSS and Dynamic Html, AVI and Animation and all that jazz.IBM won't agree with Microsoft who won't agree with Google and so on. Sowe get Research Project after Research Project to describe the best Accessibility methodology and the Accessibility community applaud when each new white paper is released but nothing, or comparitivly little ever gets done. Where is the common accessibility standards between a Linux, IBM, based app and a UIA - Microsoft app? What about diferent browsers and diferent versions of each browser and related JS, CSS and other new technicals? It is still the Wild West out there when it comes to accessibility and the Screen Reader companies arefloundering to figure out how to handle all the crazyness that is International Corporate Egos whenit comes to Accessibility Practices me thinks. Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 10:20 PM Subject: RE: .Net Framework DocumentationI am speaking only of the interface. Not the languages the web is written in. When it comes right down to it we do not interface with php, pearl,asp. We interface with html weather it is served by Javascript or justaclean page of html. The html is what needs to have a blind friendly UIstuck on the front. That can mean ear cons like system access has or voice schema's like jaws but those seem to be more candy than actual helpful information.You say Firefox and Internet Explorer are very accessible I say go to www.gmail.com a very accessible site and delete 246 emails. It took meforever. My wife had over 1000 and was finished in less than 5 minutes. I don't even know how long it took her because she was done before I could time her. If I am in outlook and want to delete all the mails from one email list I do a quick search and ctrl-a and delete they are gone. . Try that on a web interface. For the sighted user many of these web interfaceslook exactly like a regular application. To us they look like nasty webrather than easy to use dialogs. Another example of what I am talking about is the Google Rss reader or Google docs. My sited friends that code with me at work all use Google Rss now because it's an easy way for them to read their news at work home or on the go with their Cell phone. To them using Google Rss is as easy as me using the rss groups I have set up in Outlook or other applications designed for rss because they can act on the groups with drags of their mouse right on the web as if it was a true list try thatwith a screen reader. Same for Google docs. Sure you can use it but Ichallenge you to go make a document on google docs set up a table put some items in the table and then put headers before and after the table. See how long that takes you even if you can get it done over how long it would take you in something like word. What I am saying in short is the web right now might be accessible but it sure is a bitch to use in many cases. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 8:14 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: .Net Framework DocumentationI mean firefox and internet explorer are both very accessible. What doyou mean that we need to find out a whole new way to work the web for the blind. You mean to drop the technology that we've been used to for years? Do you mean no more PHP, no more Perl, no more ASP.net? -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:44 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation I will second some of what people are saying here. MSDN is very nice online. The problem is to this day no screen reader has made the web as easy to use for the blind as it is for the sited. A new way to deal with the web has to be designed and I am not even sure what that new way is but I think that is where we have to be putting all our power. Making the web as accessible as regular programs because that is where regular programs are going. We should be able to use Google docs as simply as opening Word samefor gmail my wife doesn't even use a mail client any longer because theweb clients are getting so good. You sure the hell couldn't prove that to me but I don't blame the web apps as much as I do all the screen readers and I mean all. If people have ideas on how to make a better web browser interface for the blind please write me and tell me I have several projects I am working on that this information would come in handy. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:09 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation MSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all who want to use it? -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up a browser and kept it at msdn.com. I pretty much had entered class names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members (fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc). It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's just one extra step. VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering. On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once you learn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are prettyhelpful.They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do contain examples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods andprocedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations withsomeexamples. The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know whata class is you can read what each class does, what it's methods andPropertiesdo and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on usingaparticular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords to Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for thirdparty articles on that method or property as used in a similar exampleto the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in help feature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to use Intellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any examplesorexplanations of what selected methods or properties do. You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages ashyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS andthenget to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like having those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other MSDN pages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favoritesfolderor even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of reference materials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning tool than the Reference Manual. . Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use. There are usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and now2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manualthe embedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that sameversion of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like theProgrammer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go from there or the Library Heading Page.. I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use theirdocs for reference and to learn new features since I already know mostof what is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and eventsforthe VS features I use. Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and it's related features and VWD 2008 etc... Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Kerneels Roos To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation Hi everyone, I was just wondering how other people experienced working with the Microsoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks they were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more productive process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all or complaining about it, just looking for advice :-). It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about how inaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this special right to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's aprivilegerather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make theirstuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain fromspending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do itwelleven. If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorerforexample, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can bedonewith a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particularprogramis easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted peopledoes,but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the screen properly. Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get knownforbeing super cooperative with companies in their drive to make theirsoftwareaccessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member of the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their mounths to complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and harder to make their products inclusive? And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to makethem try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Yto create competing software that are in fact better and more accessible-- company Y could add value. I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously offer their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's alltry ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happento ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's not moan and complain -- life's too short. OK, enough complaining about complaining! Enjoy the adventure of programming! On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: I'm on 11.0. From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation They seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running? Rather than blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first. ----- Original Message ----- From: Katherine Moss To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation I'll tell you,I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferencesstuff. Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via documentexplorer.I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes they have provided for accessibility in their own software! From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM To: programmingblind Subject: .Net Framework Documentation Hi List, Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .Net Framework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer that ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can getatthe information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with the older style CHM files that works great with JAWS. Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just the.Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format?I'vesearched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download asof yet. Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I manage to navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around withtheJAWS cursor and so on... If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most welcome! Regards -- Kerneels Roos Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 Skype: cornelis.roos The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets thecheese!__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5345 (20100805) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5345 (20100805) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virussignature database 5347 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virussignature database 5347 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Kerneels Roos Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 Skype: cornelis.roos The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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