RE: Good resource for beginning programmers

  • From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 00:46:07 -0500

Same here. He just doesn't believe his hardware is bad.

*stage whisper*, don't tell him.

Take care,
Sina 

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:21 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers

I have no idea what your running, but last I bluescreened was when I had bad 
hardware...
On 11/18/2010 7:16 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
> Um hard to get a blue screen.   Hmm what is hard like once a day or twice?
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina 
> Bahram
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:32 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Good resource for beginning programmers
>
> Oh for sure.
>
> Otherwise, all you're going to do is simply crash your own program. 
> It's hard to even get a old fashioned blue screen anymore, much less 
> accidentally corrupt someone else's address space.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
> Littlefield, Tyler
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:28 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>
> Hahaha. That sounds fun. I guess the point I'm trying to make: you 
> have to intentionally try to get to this point. You can do these 
> lovely things, but in order to get there, you have to knowingly 
> escolate privileges, inject code, whatever.
> On 11/18/2010 1:24 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> Nope, none of them require API's.
>>
>> You can do some really weird things with privilege escalation, and 
>> then it's all over. Jump to lib attacks, return oriented programming, 
>> jump oriented programming, basic stack smashing, basic heap 
>> overflows, dll
> injection, ring -1, -2, and -3 level attacks depending on 
> virtualization technologies being used, page table corruption attacks, 
> chain of trust invalidation, etc, etc, etc.
>> That's only the latest stuff. You'd be amazed how many attacks from 
>> pre 2005 still work. For example, you overwrite the interrupt 
>> descriptor table, grab some debug registers, point one of them at 
>> your
> page fault exception handler, and it's over ... There is no way to 
> detect that sucker, no matter how good your antivirus is.
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
>> Littlefield, Tyler
>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:18 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>
>> Well, you need to go through an API usually, no? It's not going to 
>> happen
> with a dangling pointer in a normal app.
>> On 11/18/2010 1:16 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> Not hard at all, just minorly annoying.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
>>> Littlefield, Tyler
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:04 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>
>>> That's what I was getting at; the whole virtual addressing and 
>>> stuff. He
> was making it sound as if:
>>> int i[10]
>>> i[10]=300
>>> Was going to make things go boom. :) I jus didn't want the OP to be 
>>> scared off. Windows and *nix both have virtual addressing, so 
>>> accessing
> bob's process from joe's process is fairly hard.
>>> On 11/18/2010 12:57 PM, qubit wrote:
>>>> Hi Ty -- I am not sure about windows so take this with a grain of 
>>>> salt, but it is true that an OS does have some protections, such as 
>>>> preventing writing to someone else's virtual memory, to guard 
>>>> against malware.  However a truely pathological C++ program can use 
>>>> pointers to do some interesting things with stack frames that will 
>>>> cause
> a lot of very strange behavior.
>>>> But no, it won't go outside the process's virtual space, fortunately.
>>>> And perhaps it varies with the OS.
>>>> Keep in mind though that a debugger is just a program, and needs to 
>>>> have the ability to control a process and therefore needs to be 
>>>> able to write to addresses that are otherwise protected.
>>>> I particularly enjoyed debugger development when I was working in 
>>>> language support.  It is fascinating to me to see how a process is
> implemented.
>>>> --le
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 7:32 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're making c++ sound way way to dangerous. If you mess up with a 
>>>> pointer, unless you're programming at a way way low level and 
>>>> directly accessing the harddrive, you're not going to trash anything.
>>>> You have access to memory, but like I said before when you went off 
>>>> on this "c++ can blow up the world," thing, the OS protects 
>>>> programmers from themselves. Or sort of, anyway.
>>>> On 11/17/2010 6:20 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
>>>>> Good lord, no!  php might be written in c++ but, I promise you 
>>>>> that you can not do the same things.  Php won't have stuff like 
>>>>> template metaprogramming, generic programming nor will it compile 
>>>>> right down to binary like c++.  If you write stuff in c++, it runs 
>>>>> lightning fast.
>>>>> I don't know the syntax to php but, I'm pretty sure it's too 
>>>>> different from c++ to be concsidered a dialect.  Python is 
>>>>> definitely nothing like c in its syntax.  And, you could never 
>>>>> program a driver in Python.  It would take forever if it runs at 
>>>>> all.  They are not dialects of the languages they are written in.
>>>>> I wish someone who was a bonified computer scientist could jump in 
>>>>> and explain this in terms more fitting.  Scripting languages are 
>>>>> used
> primarily for tweaking.
>>>>> Look at the Jaws scripting language, for instance.  Languages like 
>>>>> Python and lua are used to customize applicatiosn written in stuff 
>>>>> like c++ so that they don't have to rewrite the whole app and 
>>>>> recompile it just for a few modifications.  It's hard to explain.
>>>>> Honestly, you will just have to do some research until you find 
>>>>> something that explains it to you in a way that will make sense to 
>>>>> you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, the lines between some scripting languages and programming 
>>>>> languages are becoming blurred but the great yawning chasm that 
>>>>> will never be crossed is still the interpreted versus compiled chasm.
>>>>> You might technically be able to write an application from the 
>>>>> ground up in pure Python but, I promise you that if that thing 
>>>>> goes toe to toe with another version of the same application 
>>>>> written in
>>>>> c++, it will lose every time.  By the time the Python app is done
>>>>> printing out its welcome message, the c++ app has done what was 
>>>>> asked
> of it and closed.
>>>>>       This is because there are too many layers between the app 
>>>>> and the binary code for it.  It's first got to go through the 
>>>>> interpreter which then puts it into binary.  The app written in 
>>>>> c++ runs right on the system itself.  You have to go to something 
>>>>> like c or asm to get lower level.  The isntructions to the 
>>>>> computer don't have to be translated before execution.  The day 
>>>>> when what you mention with regard to making something like c++ 
>>>>> available to the nonprogrammer is way way far off in the future if 
>>>>> it will ever
> come.
>>>>> I frandkly hope it doesn't  The thought of some nonprogrammers I 
>>>>> know with acces to that kind of computing power is frightening.  I 
>>>>> mean, you can tell the computer exactly what to do right down to 
>>>>> what goes where in each individual piece of memory.  There are no
> shortcuts in that language.
>>>>> And, there shouldn't be.  It gives you so many chances to shoot 
>>>>> yourself in the foot that if you aren't down in the inner workings 
>>>>> of it, as it were, under the proverbial hood, you won't be able to 
>>>>> control what it does.  You could realistically totally trash a 
>>>>> hard drive if you screw up just right with pointers and if you do 
>>>>> something like overflowing an array of 10 items with say 100 or 
>>>>> something like that.  I hear you can do some serious damage with 
>>>>> stuff
> like that.
>>>>> Can't see that kind of damage being caused by php or python.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>      wrote:
>>>>>> Hi-
>>>>>> Thank you for that explanation.
>>>>>> Seems like the line between programming and scripting languages 
>>>>>> is getting blurred.
>>>>>> Are scripting languages becoming as powerful as a programming
> language?
>>>>>> Or
>>>>>> do they just bring the best out of the programming language they 
>>>>>> are written in.
>>>>>> If PHP and Python are written in C and C++, then why can't they 
>>>>>> make PHP and Python to be more like a CMS and useable by
> non-programmers?
>>>>>> In summary, if I have this correct, a scripting language is 
>>>>>> actually written in a programming language and is just a way of 
>>>>>> accessing and using the given programming language.
>>>>>> When I use PHP and Python, I am actually using C and C++, just in 
>>>>>> a unique dialect?  That is assuming Python and PHP are written in 
>>>>>> C or
>>>>>> C++.
>>>>>> So somehow, PHP and Python were supposed to make C or what ever 
>>>>>> programming language easier to use?
>>>>>> Is this accurate?
>>>>>> Sorry for the dumb questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
>>>>>> Christopher
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:24 PM
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is one of my pet peeves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A programming language is a language that is, in the majority of 
>>>>>> the cases, compiled to native machine code -and- used for 
>>>>>> application development (i.e. C, C++, D) A scripting language is 
>>>>>> a language that is, in the majority of the cases, interpreted 
>>>>>> -and- used to control applications, and sometimes application 
>>>>>> development in
> general (i.e.
>>>>>> Python, PHP, Ruby, AutoIT, etc.) Java was not a true programming 
>>>>>> language until recently when it decided to compile its bytecode 
>>>>>> on-the-fly. C# has always been a programming language because it 
>>>>>> has always compiled its MSIL on-the-fly. PHP and Python are both 
>>>>>> written in C and are both interpreted. (PHP might be written in
>>>>>> C++.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I refuse to call a non-compiled language a programming language, 
>>>>>> regardless of the language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, here is a simple test to see what is a programming language 
>>>>>> and what is a scripting language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Can you write a full application in the language? If yes, then 
>>>>>> is the language compiled? If yes, then it is a programming language.
>>>>>> 2. Can you write a full application in the language? If yes, then 
>>>>>> is the language compiled? If no, then it is a scripting language.
>>>>>> 3. Can you write a full application in the language? If no, then 
>>>>>> it is a scripting language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/17/2010 2:24 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
>>>>>>> I am not at a stage in my learning where I can do well at 
>>>>>>> explaining this so, I have provided some links for you to explore:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scripting language
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_language
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Programming language:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Be warned:  This will create more questions for you.  Have fun!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>       wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi-
>>>>>>>> What is the difference between a scripting language and a 
>>>>>>>> programming language?
>>>>>>>> So if PHP and Python are scripting languages, what programming 
>>>>>>>> language
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> they written in?
>>>>>>>> And why are they called scripting languages?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
>>>>>>>> Alex Midence
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:52 PM
>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You've got scripting languages and programming languages there.
>>>>>>>> Javascript is client side scripting.  Websites run scripts on 
>>>>>>>> the visitor's machine to dynamically change themselves 
>>>>>>>> according to stimuli.  Php is a scripting language that does 
>>>>>>>> dynamic webpage changing among other things from the server 
>>>>>>>> side.  It is used in conjunction with database solutions like 
>>>>>>>> my sql and the
> like.
>>>>>>>> Java and C are both programming languages.  Java is a high 
>>>>>>>> level object-oriented language that runs on a virtual machine.  
>>>>>>>> It is used to create applets and web apps for all sorts of functions.
>>>>>>>> Java is also used to create desktop  applicaitons like, for 
>>>>>>>> instance, Eclipse, Open Office, and things of that nature.  C 
>>>>>>>> is a low-level procedural programming language that is used for 
>>>>>>>> desktop aplications and low-level programming such as drivers,
> utilities and the like.
>>>>>>>> Certain platforms are also written in C like, for instance, 
>>>>>>>> Windoes is in C.  I believe Gnome was also written in C.  I 
>>>>>>>> went into this detail because your post indicated that you 
>>>>>>>> thought these were all web development languages and they are not.
>>>>>>>> Python is a scripting language that can do a lot of the same 
>>>>>>>> things programming languages can do and has a reputation for 
>>>>>>>> being easy to learn and fostering rapid development.  An 
>>>>>>>> applications that php could not create, IMHO is a screen reader.
> Python was used to create two of them.
>>>>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>       wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi everybody-
>>>>>>>>> I am trying to decide where to start as far as learning
> programming.
>>>>>>>>> I decided I would focus on 1. PHP, 2. JavaScript, 3. Java, 4. 
>>>>>>>>> C I figured these are being used the most in web development 
>>>>>>>>> and custom applications. So, where does Python come in?  How 
>>>>>>>>> would you compare
>>>>>> Python
>>>>>>>>> with Java, PHP, and C??
>>>>>>>>> Can anybody give me an example of what cannot be developed in 
>>>>>>>>> PHP which
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> be developed in Python?
>>>>>>>>> Or how about Java vs Python if PHP is to lowly?  I have just 
>>>>>>>>> heard PHP
>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> limitations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
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>


-- 

Thanks,
Ty

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