RE: Good resource for beginning programmers

  • From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 15:16:08 -0500

Not hard at all, just minorly annoying.
 
Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:04 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers

That's what I was getting at; the whole virtual addressing and stuff. He was 
making it sound as if:
int i[10]
i[10]=300
Was going to make things go boom. :) I jus didn't want the OP to be scared off. 
Windows and *nix both have virtual addressing, so
accessing bob's process from joe's process is fairly hard.
On 11/18/2010 12:57 PM, qubit wrote:
> Hi Ty -- I am not sure about windows so take this with a grain of 
> salt, but it is true that an OS does have some protections, such as 
> preventing writing to someone else's virtual memory, to guard against 
> malware.  However a truely pathological C++ program can use pointers 
> to do some interesting things with stack frames that will cause a lot of very 
> strange behavior.
> But no, it won't go outside the process's virtual space, fortunately.
> And perhaps it varies with the OS.
> Keep in mind though that a debugger is just a program, and needs to 
> have the ability to control a process and therefore needs to be able 
> to write to addresses that are otherwise protected.
> I particularly enjoyed debugger development when I was working in 
> language support.  It is fascinating to me to see how a process is 
> implemented.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 7:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>
>
> You're making c++ sound way way to dangerous. If you mess up with a 
> pointer, unless you're programming at a way way low level and directly 
> accessing the harddrive, you're not going to trash anything. You have 
> access to memory, but like I said before when you went off on this 
> "c++ can blow up the world," thing, the OS protects programmers from 
> themselves. Or sort of, anyway.
> On 11/17/2010 6:20 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
>> Good lord, no!  php might be written in c++ but, I promise you that 
>> you can not do the same things.  Php won't have stuff like template 
>> metaprogramming, generic programming nor will it compile right down 
>> to binary like c++.  If you write stuff in c++, it runs lightning fast.
>> I don't know the syntax to php but, I'm pretty sure it's too 
>> different from c++ to be concsidered a dialect.  Python is definitely 
>> nothing like c in its syntax.  And, you could never program a driver 
>> in Python.  It would take forever if it runs at all.  They are not 
>> dialects of the languages they are written in.  I wish someone who 
>> was a bonified computer scientist could jump in and explain this in 
>> terms more fitting.  Scripting languages are used primarily for tweaking.
>> Look at the Jaws scripting language, for instance.  Languages like 
>> Python and lua are used to customize applicatiosn written in stuff 
>> like c++ so that they don't have to rewrite the whole app and 
>> recompile it just for a few modifications.  It's hard to explain.
>> Honestly, you will just have to do some research until you find 
>> something that explains it to you in a way that will make sense to 
>> you.
>>
>> Yes, the lines between some scripting languages and programming 
>> languages are becoming blurred but the great yawning chasm that will 
>> never be crossed is still the interpreted versus compiled chasm.  You 
>> might technically be able to write an application from the ground up 
>> in pure Python but, I promise you that if that thing goes toe to toe 
>> with another version of the same application written in c++, it will 
>> lose every time.  By the time the Python app is done printing out its 
>> welcome message, the c++ app has done what was asked of it and closed.
>>    This is because there are too many layers between the app and the 
>> binary code for it.  It's first got to go through the interpreter 
>> which then puts it into binary.  The app written in c++ runs right on 
>> the system itself.  You have to go to something like c or asm to get 
>> lower level.  The isntructions to the computer don't have to be 
>> translated before execution.  The day when what you mention with 
>> regard to making something like c++ available to the nonprogrammer is 
>> way way far off in the future if it will ever come.  I frandkly hope 
>> it doesn't  The thought of some nonprogrammers I know with acces to 
>> that kind of computing power is frightening.  I mean, you can tell 
>> the computer exactly what to do right down to what goes where in each 
>> individual piece of memory.  There are no shortcuts in that language.
>> And, there shouldn't be.  It gives you so many chances to shoot 
>> yourself in the foot that if you aren't down in the inner workings of 
>> it, as it were, under the proverbial hood, you won't be able to 
>> control what it does.  You could realistically totally trash a hard 
>> drive if you screw up just right with pointers and if you do 
>> something like overflowing an array of 10 items with say 100 or 
>> something like that.  I hear you can do some serious damage with stuff like 
>> that.
>> Can't see that kind of damage being caused by php or python.
>>
>> Alex M
>>
>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>> Hi-
>>> Thank you for that explanation.
>>> Seems like the line between programming and scripting languages is 
>>> getting blurred.
>>> Are scripting languages becoming as powerful as a programming language?
>>> Or
>>> do they just bring the best out of the programming language they are 
>>> written in.
>>> If PHP and Python are written in C and C++, then why can't they make 
>>> PHP and Python to be more like a CMS and useable by non-programmers?
>>> In summary, if I have this correct, a scripting language is actually 
>>> written in a programming language and is just a way of accessing and 
>>> using the given programming language.
>>> When I use PHP and Python, I am actually using C and C++, just in a 
>>> unique dialect?  That is assuming Python and PHP are written in C or 
>>> C++.
>>> So somehow, PHP and Python were supposed to make C or what ever 
>>> programming language easier to use?
>>> Is this accurate?
>>> Sorry for the dumb questions.
>>>
>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
>>> Christopher
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:24 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>
>>> This is one of my pet peeves.
>>>
>>> A programming language is a language that is, in the majority of the 
>>> cases, compiled to native machine code -and- used for application 
>>> development (i.e. C, C++, D) A scripting language is a language that 
>>> is, in the majority of the cases, interpreted -and- used to control 
>>> applications, and sometimes application development in general (i.e.
>>> Python, PHP, Ruby, AutoIT, etc.) Java was not a true programming 
>>> language until recently when it decided to compile its bytecode 
>>> on-the-fly. C# has always been a programming language because it has 
>>> always compiled its MSIL on-the-fly. PHP and Python are both written 
>>> in C and are both interpreted. (PHP might be written in C++.)
>>>
>>> I refuse to call a non-compiled language a programming language, 
>>> regardless of the language.
>>>
>>> So, here is a simple test to see what is a programming language and 
>>> what is a scripting language.
>>>
>>> 1. Can you write a full application in the language? If yes, then is 
>>> the language compiled? If yes, then it is a programming language.
>>> 2. Can you write a full application in the language? If yes, then is 
>>> the language compiled? If no, then it is a scripting language.
>>> 3. Can you write a full application in the language? If no, then it 
>>> is a scripting language.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/17/2010 2:24 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
>>>> I am not at a stage in my learning where I can do well at 
>>>> explaining this so, I have provided some links for you to explore:
>>>>
>>>> Scripting language
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_language
>>>>
>>>> Programming language:
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language
>>>>
>>>> Be warned:  This will create more questions for you.  Have fun!!!
>>>>
>>>> Alex M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>    wrote:
>>>>> Hi-
>>>>> What is the difference between a scripting language and a 
>>>>> programming language?
>>>>> So if PHP and Python are scripting languages, what programming 
>>>>> language
>>> are
>>>>> they written in?
>>>>> And why are they called scripting languages?
>>>>>
>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex 
>>>>> Midence
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:52 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> You've got scripting languages and programming languages there.
>>>>> Javascript is client side scripting.  Websites run scripts on the 
>>>>> visitor's machine to dynamically change themselves according to 
>>>>> stimuli.  Php is a scripting language that does dynamic webpage 
>>>>> changing among other things from the server side.  It is used in 
>>>>> conjunction with database solutions like my sql and the like.  
>>>>> Java and C are both programming languages.  Java is a high level 
>>>>> object-oriented language that runs on a virtual machine.  It is 
>>>>> used to create applets and web apps for all sorts of functions.  
>>>>> Java is also used to create desktop  applicaitons like, for 
>>>>> instance, Eclipse, Open Office, and things of that nature.  C is a 
>>>>> low-level procedural programming language that is used for desktop 
>>>>> aplications and low-level programming such as drivers, utilities and the 
>>>>> like.
>>>>> Certain platforms are also written in C like, for instance, 
>>>>> Windoes is in C.  I believe Gnome was also written in C.  I went 
>>>>> into this detail because your post indicated that you thought 
>>>>> these were all web development languages and they are not.  Python 
>>>>> is a scripting language that can do a lot of the same things 
>>>>> programming languages can do and has a reputation for being easy 
>>>>> to learn and fostering rapid development.  An applications that 
>>>>> php could not create, IMHO is a screen reader.  Python was used to create 
>>>>> two of them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>    wrote:
>>>>>> Hi everybody-
>>>>>> I am trying to decide where to start as far as learning programming.
>>>>>> I decided I would focus on 1. PHP, 2. JavaScript, 3. Java, 4. C I 
>>>>>> figured these are being used the most in web development and 
>>>>>> custom applications. So, where does Python come in?  How would 
>>>>>> you compare
>>> Python
>>>>>> with Java, PHP, and C??
>>>>>> Can anybody give me an example of what cannot be developed in PHP 
>>>>>> which
>>>>> can
>>>>>> be developed in Python?
>>>>>> Or how about Java vs Python if PHP is to lowly?  I have just 
>>>>>> heard PHP
>>> has
>>>>>> limitations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at 
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at 
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at 
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at 
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at 
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at 
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>>
>


-- 

Thanks,
Ty

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at 
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at 
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

Other related posts: