[optacon-l] Re: OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
- From: "C. Pond" <cpond@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:41:11 -0400
Yes Anne, I agree and would have the same concerns, and also we have the
same benefits in Canada of suing the standard chip cards and POS terminals.
There was some amusement amongst us years ago when it was suggested by some
of the brass involved in the talking ATM project that it be tried out and
tested on a drive-through banking ATM.
Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: Anne Telfer
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 3:28 PM
To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [optacon-l] Re: OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
Well said Charles!
Here in the UK after much campaigning we now have some talking ATM's but you
won't catch me using one. I would definitely not feel safe standing there in
the street or even in a shop with my long cane with headphones on (or even
an earpiece in). I get my cash by paying with a debit card in supermarkets
via the cashback service. I find our CHIP and PIN terminals very simple to
use as they all use a pretty standard layout. The 5 key is always marked
and the Enter key is always bottom right. I realise that in other countries
POS terminals may not be so easy to use and there may not be shops that
provide a cashback service. If people on the list have this option though I
thoroughly recommend it cash and shopping at the same time with a Cashier
watching and helping if necessary. You can also ask for the notes and even
coins you prefer!
Anne
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. Pond" <cpond@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 1:42 AM
Subject: [optacon-l] Re: OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
> AS I have written Karen, Captek did some work in making POS terminals
> accessible. Look them up.
> Having speech output to both keypad and visual display, and tactually
> marked
> keys, does not necessarily mean proper accessibility.
> Years ago I was somewhat involved in the effort to try and make ATMs
> accessible for a certain bank here in Canada. Making braille labels for
> the
> keys--which were to some extent aside from the numbers arbitrary
> symbols--meant nothing since each key changes with the context of the
> action
> being performed. Each bank machine is different from the other, as is now
> the case for each POS terminal wherever one goes. As it turns out, the
> voice output could easily be programmed into the software of the
> machines,
> and the hardware is already built in for other purposes which can make the
> thing talk, so no specialized speech hardware was needed. There still
> remains the issue of security, which is more important than absolute
> accessibility for the mere sake of having something accessible. An
> earphone
> jack was attached so that a blind users could fuss and fiddle with their
> hand bag as they finally plugged in their headsets to march forth on the
> great accessible day of independently and triunphantly accessing their POS
> talking and tactile-marked terminal and ATM. All by themselves, too!
> Well,
> during the tine they weren't "looking" while they were fiddling with their
> headset so they could have an accessible terminal, and when their
> attention
> was focused more on listening to the headset than on their surroundings,
> someone could snatch away their card, their hand bag and disappear within
> the complete confidence that the happily independent victom could never
> identify the robber. Oh well, at least their TOS terminals and ATMs were
> accessible.
>
> These chip cards are secure from the user point of view at least, so a
> dishonest person must use other ways to commit fraud and robbery through a
> person't account. The vast majority of the time, the clerk will turn away
> while I punch in any numbers and options, and she will also orient me to
> the
> layout of the keypad if/when necessary. Besides, will the clerk or
> bistander remember your personal access code beyond the moment? Even if
> they do, what can they do with it?--Will they have your card to use? So,
> accessibility might mean co-operation, rather than gadgetry itself.
>
> As for reading these receipts which pile up, we have something called an
> optacon. Those like Mikie D. who are photon-dependend (as I call them)
> can
> also prove useful for this task, albeit their relationship with the very
> photons on which they depend is ambivalent at best. :)
>
> Charles
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MikeD
> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 7:37 PM
> To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
>
> Yes, As a sighted person (Charles says I have a vision sensitivity....)
> I think I understand.
>
> Actually I have never used a Canadian banking machine. I tried once and
> it took my card
> and I wasn't able to get the card back for a week. So I cancelled my
> account and never went back!
>
> You want the message displayed to also have an audible message. So the
> unsighted
> can operate the terminal independently.
>
> I think the only way you will change it is if the government sets the
> rules. For example,
> the 'talking' bank ATMs, Ottawa bus service having to verbally
> announcing the bus stops.
> This is a Charter rights issue, you have the right to
> do business as a sighted person, the current POS removes that right!
>
> So politicizing the issue, is I think the way to deal with the question.
>
> I live in Ottawa 613-731-1281 if you want to talk about it.
> Call me, and I will call back (I don't pay long distance in North America)
>
> MikeD
>
>
> On 2014-04-20 5:10 PM, Carrie Green wrote:
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> Yes, I am totally aware of this. I think I am still being completely
>> misunderstood.
>>
>> Have you ever used a talking bank machine? It's completely accessible
>> with
>> a
>> headphone. Wouldn't you like that option with a point of sale terminal as
>> well? I am not really concerned with entering pin numbers and such, as
>> that's really easy. It's what is being displayed on the screen that's the
>> issue. Wouldn't it be nice, that if it requires a yes or no answer to be
>> directed to push the correct button by the machine itself rather than the
>> store clerk or someone you are with? It's an independence thing.
>>
>> Also as a merchant, there are many things that have to be done to close
>> the
>> sale, print reports, reconciliation, etc ..., none of which is accessible
>> to
>> a blind merchant. I am hoping to get the POS developers to make their
>> products accessible to blind customers and merchants alike. If my POS
>> terminal goes down, I will not ever know unless my customers tell me.
>> Also,
>> I have to enlist someone that possibly has no idea how to operate a POS
>> terminal, as they have the vision, whereas I don't.
>>
>> I guess I'm just not explaining myself well enough.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carrie
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "MikeD" <donegan@xxxxxxxx>
>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 10:50 AM
>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
>>
>>
>>> The POS terminals in Canada take a card with an in-beded chip. Called a
>>> 'Chip" card.
>>> The terminals will ask the user to insert the card in a slot in the
>>> bottom
>>> or to 'tap' the card on the reader.
>>>
>>> If you have to insert the card you have to enter your PIN, if you can
>>> 'tap' then you
>>> don't have to enter anything. Your purchase is approved or not.
>>>
>>> The 'tap' feature is available on the newer readers, usually for lower
>>> value purchases,
>>> typically at a coffee shop drive by, but the gas station I go to allows
>>> gas purchases by tapping
>>> the card, which then prints a customer receipt and a vendor copy, with
>>> no signature required.
>>> So Carrie this might help you. I don't know who sets the tap limit.
>>>
>>> In the US the 'chipped' cards has barely got started, I was in the
>>> States last summer and all
>>> my credit card purchases had to be swiped and signed.
>>>
>>> As for the PIN entry, I haven't seen any terminals that change the
>>> layout to prevent others
>>> from seeing the pin numbers typed, but there usually are small screens
>>> around the pad to make
>>> other seeing the numbers.
>>>
>>> One way to prevent 'spying' would be to fake typing one or two extra
>>> numbers, before or after
>>> the 4 digits needed. Also use your other hand to shield the pad.
>>> Most if not all people, I have seen look away, so as not to be seen
>>> spying on you.
>>>
>>> Mike Donegan, sighted friend of Charles
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2014-04-19 12:11 AM, C. Pond wrote:
>>>> Security indeed. When people press in their pin number and other
>>>> options
>>>> on
>>>> the keypad, others can see their fingerss positions and the numberpads,
>>>> and
>>>> so there they are able to know the person's security codes and options.
>>>> Some manufacturers try to work around this by having a touch screen, on
>>>> which a virtual keypad changes its layout at any time throughout the
>>>> process. So, for these two reasons at least, having earphones alone
>>>> and
>>>> speech output for the display and keypad options (or braille
>>>> telemetry)wouldn't mean accessibility. It has been done for ATMs.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I have learned kinaesthetically by default the layout and
>>>> pattern of the several routine terminals where I mostly shop, and a few
>>>> different ones now and then don't make a difference. The chips in the
>>>> various consumer cards mean tighter security, and in this case
>>>> therefore
>>>> accessibility for its own sake is less critical. In this case,
>>>> accessibility might mean accepting.
>>>>
>>>> If you are a merchant, you need access no other person's point of sale
>>>> cards
>>>> than your's.
>>>>
>>>> If nonkinaesthetic memory serves correctly, Science Products who did
>>>> work
>>>> in
>>>> adapting point of sale terminals is now called Captek.
>>>>
>>>> Charles
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Carrie Green
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 11:54 PM
>>>> To: Optacon List
>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
>>>>
>>>> Dear Listers,
>>>> Thank you to those that have responded to my query. However, my point
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> email is to actually get the point of sale developers to make their
>>>> current
>>>> point of sale terminals accessible to us now. I cannot understand why
>>>> this
>>>> cannot be done, and am willing to make an effort for us blind customers
>>>> and
>>>> merchants to do this. I am hoping to contact anyone who may have
>>>> knowledge
>>>> of any developments with any point of sale developer with regards to
>>>> built-in accessibility via speaker/earphone jack. I am guessing my last
>>>> email with regards to this issue was not clear enough as individuals
>>>> are
>>>> suggesting alternatives to the current POS terminal I have here at my
>>>> business, which is great, but not the answer I'm looking for. Different
>>>> countries have extremely high-security with regards to Point of sale
>>>> terminals such as Canada, and going with an older machine, will not
>>>> work
>>>> with the current security technology, or work with interac debit
>>>> (direct
>>>> from bank account via client card), such
>>>> as Square, as some will only accept credit cards or debit credit
>>>> cards).
>>>> Accessibility needs to be developed in to the machine as they are being
>>>> developed at the factory or wherever they do such things.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully I've made myself a little more understandable, and I'd be
>>>> grateful
>>>> for any information.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Carrie Green
>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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