[optacon-l] Re: OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
- From: "Anne Telfer" <anne_telfer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:28:35 +0100
Well said Charles!
Here in the UK after much campaigning we now have some talking ATM's but you
won't catch me using one. I would definitely not feel safe standing there in
the street or even in a shop with my long cane with headphones on (or even
an earpiece in). I get my cash by paying with a debit card in supermarkets
via the cashback service. I find our CHIP and PIN terminals very simple to
use as they all use a pretty standard layout. The 5 key is always marked
and the Enter key is always bottom right. I realise that in other countries
POS terminals may not be so easy to use and there may not be shops that
provide a cashback service. If people on the list have this option though I
thoroughly recommend it cash and shopping at the same time with a Cashier
watching and helping if necessary. You can also ask for the notes and even
coins you prefer!
Anne
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. Pond" <cpond@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 1:42 AM
Subject: [optacon-l] Re: OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
> AS I have written Karen, Captek did some work in making POS terminals
> accessible. Look them up.
> Having speech output to both keypad and visual display, and tactually
> marked
> keys, does not necessarily mean proper accessibility.
> Years ago I was somewhat involved in the effort to try and make ATMs
> accessible for a certain bank here in Canada. Making braille labels for
> the
> keys--which were to some extent aside from the numbers arbitrary
> symbols--meant nothing since each key changes with the context of the
> action
> being performed. Each bank machine is different from the other, as is now
> the case for each POS terminal wherever one goes. As it turns out, the
> voice output could easily be programmed into the software of the
> machines,
> and the hardware is already built in for other purposes which can make the
> thing talk, so no specialized speech hardware was needed. There still
> remains the issue of security, which is more important than absolute
> accessibility for the mere sake of having something accessible. An
> earphone
> jack was attached so that a blind users could fuss and fiddle with their
> hand bag as they finally plugged in their headsets to march forth on the
> great accessible day of independently and triunphantly accessing their POS
> talking and tactile-marked terminal and ATM. All by themselves, too!
> Well,
> during the tine they weren't "looking" while they were fiddling with their
> headset so they could have an accessible terminal, and when their
> attention
> was focused more on listening to the headset than on their surroundings,
> someone could snatch away their card, their hand bag and disappear within
> the complete confidence that the happily independent victom could never
> identify the robber. Oh well, at least their TOS terminals and ATMs were
> accessible.
>
> These chip cards are secure from the user point of view at least, so a
> dishonest person must use other ways to commit fraud and robbery through a
> person't account. The vast majority of the time, the clerk will turn away
> while I punch in any numbers and options, and she will also orient me to
> the
> layout of the keypad if/when necessary. Besides, will the clerk or
> bistander remember your personal access code beyond the moment? Even if
> they do, what can they do with it?--Will they have your card to use? So,
> accessibility might mean co-operation, rather than gadgetry itself.
>
> As for reading these receipts which pile up, we have something called an
> optacon. Those like Mikie D. who are photon-dependend (as I call them)
> can
> also prove useful for this task, albeit their relationship with the very
> photons on which they depend is ambivalent at best. :)
>
> Charles
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MikeD
> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 7:37 PM
> To: optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
>
> Yes, As a sighted person (Charles says I have a vision sensitivity....)
> I think I understand.
>
> Actually I have never used a Canadian banking machine. I tried once and
> it took my card
> and I wasn't able to get the card back for a week. So I cancelled my
> account and never went back!
>
> You want the message displayed to also have an audible message. So the
> unsighted
> can operate the terminal independently.
>
> I think the only way you will change it is if the government sets the
> rules. For example,
> the 'talking' bank ATMs, Ottawa bus service having to verbally
> announcing the bus stops.
> This is a Charter rights issue, you have the right to
> do business as a sighted person, the current POS removes that right!
>
> So politicizing the issue, is I think the way to deal with the question.
>
> I live in Ottawa 613-731-1281 if you want to talk about it.
> Call me, and I will call back (I don't pay long distance in North America)
>
> MikeD
>
>
> On 2014-04-20 5:10 PM, Carrie Green wrote:
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> Yes, I am totally aware of this. I think I am still being completely
>> misunderstood.
>>
>> Have you ever used a talking bank machine? It's completely accessible
>> with
>> a
>> headphone. Wouldn't you like that option with a point of sale terminal as
>> well? I am not really concerned with entering pin numbers and such, as
>> that's really easy. It's what is being displayed on the screen that's the
>> issue. Wouldn't it be nice, that if it requires a yes or no answer to be
>> directed to push the correct button by the machine itself rather than the
>> store clerk or someone you are with? It's an independence thing.
>>
>> Also as a merchant, there are many things that have to be done to close
>> the
>> sale, print reports, reconciliation, etc ..., none of which is accessible
>> to
>> a blind merchant. I am hoping to get the POS developers to make their
>> products accessible to blind customers and merchants alike. If my POS
>> terminal goes down, I will not ever know unless my customers tell me.
>> Also,
>> I have to enlist someone that possibly has no idea how to operate a POS
>> terminal, as they have the vision, whereas I don't.
>>
>> I guess I'm just not explaining myself well enough.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carrie
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "MikeD" <donegan@xxxxxxxx>
>> To: <optacon-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 10:50 AM
>> Subject: [optacon-l] Re: OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
>>
>>
>>> The POS terminals in Canada take a card with an in-beded chip. Called a
>>> 'Chip" card.
>>> The terminals will ask the user to insert the card in a slot in the
>>> bottom
>>> or to 'tap' the card on the reader.
>>>
>>> If you have to insert the card you have to enter your PIN, if you can
>>> 'tap' then you
>>> don't have to enter anything. Your purchase is approved or not.
>>>
>>> The 'tap' feature is available on the newer readers, usually for lower
>>> value purchases,
>>> typically at a coffee shop drive by, but the gas station I go to allows
>>> gas purchases by tapping
>>> the card, which then prints a customer receipt and a vendor copy, with
>>> no signature required.
>>> So Carrie this might help you. I don't know who sets the tap limit.
>>>
>>> In the US the 'chipped' cards has barely got started, I was in the
>>> States last summer and all
>>> my credit card purchases had to be swiped and signed.
>>>
>>> As for the PIN entry, I haven't seen any terminals that change the
>>> layout to prevent others
>>> from seeing the pin numbers typed, but there usually are small screens
>>> around the pad to make
>>> other seeing the numbers.
>>>
>>> One way to prevent 'spying' would be to fake typing one or two extra
>>> numbers, before or after
>>> the 4 digits needed. Also use your other hand to shield the pad.
>>> Most if not all people, I have seen look away, so as not to be seen
>>> spying on you.
>>>
>>> Mike Donegan, sighted friend of Charles
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2014-04-19 12:11 AM, C. Pond wrote:
>>>> Security indeed. When people press in their pin number and other
>>>> options
>>>> on
>>>> the keypad, others can see their fingerss positions and the numberpads,
>>>> and
>>>> so there they are able to know the person's security codes and options.
>>>> Some manufacturers try to work around this by having a touch screen, on
>>>> which a virtual keypad changes its layout at any time throughout the
>>>> process. So, for these two reasons at least, having earphones alone
>>>> and
>>>> speech output for the display and keypad options (or braille
>>>> telemetry)wouldn't mean accessibility. It has been done for ATMs.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I have learned kinaesthetically by default the layout and
>>>> pattern of the several routine terminals where I mostly shop, and a few
>>>> different ones now and then don't make a difference. The chips in the
>>>> various consumer cards mean tighter security, and in this case
>>>> therefore
>>>> accessibility for its own sake is less critical. In this case,
>>>> accessibility might mean accepting.
>>>>
>>>> If you are a merchant, you need access no other person's point of sale
>>>> cards
>>>> than your's.
>>>>
>>>> If nonkinaesthetic memory serves correctly, Science Products who did
>>>> work
>>>> in
>>>> adapting point of sale terminals is now called Captek.
>>>>
>>>> Charles
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Carrie Green
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 11:54 PM
>>>> To: Optacon List
>>>> Subject: [optacon-l] OT Accessible Point of Sale Terminals
>>>>
>>>> Dear Listers,
>>>> Thank you to those that have responded to my query. However, my point
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> email is to actually get the point of sale developers to make their
>>>> current
>>>> point of sale terminals accessible to us now. I cannot understand why
>>>> this
>>>> cannot be done, and am willing to make an effort for us blind customers
>>>> and
>>>> merchants to do this. I am hoping to contact anyone who may have
>>>> knowledge
>>>> of any developments with any point of sale developer with regards to
>>>> built-in accessibility via speaker/earphone jack. I am guessing my last
>>>> email with regards to this issue was not clear enough as individuals
>>>> are
>>>> suggesting alternatives to the current POS terminal I have here at my
>>>> business, which is great, but not the answer I'm looking for. Different
>>>> countries have extremely high-security with regards to Point of sale
>>>> terminals such as Canada, and going with an older machine, will not
>>>> work
>>>> with the current security technology, or work with interac debit
>>>> (direct
>>>> from bank account via client card), such
>>>> as Square, as some will only accept credit cards or debit credit
>>>> cards).
>>>> Accessibility needs to be developed in to the machine as they are being
>>>> developed at the factory or wherever they do such things.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully I've made myself a little more understandable, and I'd be
>>>> grateful
>>>> for any information.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Carrie Green
>>>> to view the list archives, go to:
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
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>
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