[opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
- From: Tom Barry <trbarry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:24:24 -0500
It was my understanding that DVD players were restricted by the DVD
license from upscaling to greater than 480p on analog outputs. Though
there appeared to be some exceptions on the market like my Avel
Linkplayer and of course all the PC's that used grandfathered legacy vga
only connections to things not considered TV's.
Has all that changed?
- Tom
dan.grimes@xxxxxxxx wrote:
> "Also, almost everything on DVD is 24p stored and output as 30i with repeat
> fields." --Kilroy Hughes
>
> If I'm not mistaken, many of the new DVD players have HD outputs on YRB
> analog or HDMI. I don't have direct experience, but it is my understanding
> that these players (standard DVD, not Blu-Ray) actually process,
> interpolate and deliver an HD picture with some very pleasing results and
> definitely look better than the original 480 lines, according to some on
> this list and Consumer Reports magazine. I do have direct experience with
> Panasonic Blu-Ray players and can say that they do a fine job of
> up-converting much of the standard DVD material.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
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> |opendtv Digest V6 #291
> |
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> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
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>
>
> opendtv Digest Thu, 03 Dec 2009 Volume: 06 Issue: 291
>
> In This Issue:
> [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
> [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
> [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: "Mike Tsinberg" <mike@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:37:25 +0000
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
>
> TV sets that accept 1080p/24 and can display that image at 1080p/72 or
> 1080p/120 are the best display for 1080p/24 content. These display do not
> use 3:2 Film to Video frame rate conversion but instead use 1x3 or 1x5
> frame rate conversion that gives much better motion performance for
> 1080p/24 film. Most of the Blu Ray titles are recorded at 1080p/24.
>
> Mike Tsinberg
> http://www.keydigital.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cliff Benham [mailto:flyback1@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2009 04:44 PM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] 1080p questions
>
> A friend asked me for some 1080p information, which I don't know the
> complete answer to. Today, so far as I can find, the only advantage of some
> 1080p sets would be that they refresh at 120 fps instead of 60. Are there
> other good reasons to buy one now? Here's his question: "I'm a TV watcher,
> not a DVD viewer. I have two HD TiVos (1 Series 3 and one HDXL.) With the
> huge FIOS lineup and 4 simultaneous streams of TV capture capability, I
> don't watch much DVD material. With TiVo and Broadcast TV pretty much
> limited to 1080i or 720p as their highest quality formats, is there any
> advantage to purchasing a 1080p-capable TV? If so, what is it?" Also, for
> my curiosity, are any of the satellite services DTV, Dish and HD Net, cable
> and fiber video services transmitting 1080p programming today on a
> *regular* basis, and if not, when will they start? Thanks, Cliff
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You
> can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
> From: dan.grimes@xxxxxxxx
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 10:19:59 -0800
>
> "A friend asked me for some 1080p information, which I don't know the
> complete answer to. Today, so far as I can find, the only advantage of some
> 1080p sets would be that they refresh at 120 fps instead of 60....'I'm a TV
> watcher, not a DVD viewer.'" -Cliff
>
> Some Blu-Ray disks and players offer 1080p. Although, this doesn't sound
> like an advantage to your friend.
>
>
>
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> |opendtv Digest V6 #290
> |
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>
> opendtv Digest Wed, 02 Dec 2009 Volume: 06 Issue: 290
>
> In This Issue:
> [opendtv] The Rome swicthoff experience
> [opendtv] 1080p questions
> [opendtv] Re: The Rome swicthoff experience
> [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
> [opendtv] Re: The Rome swicthoff experience
> [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
> [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: "Manfredi, Albert E" <albert.e.manfredi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 15:13:44 -0600
> Subject: [opendtv] The Rome swicthoff experience
>
> http://raidigitale.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/switch-off-di-roma-come-e-andata-per-rai-uno-due-e-tre/
>
>
>
> The Rome (pop. 4M) call center reportedly got 46,000 calls by the evening
> of switchoff day (16 November).
>
> The experience in the Rome province (county) seems very similar to what
> happened here. They got lots of complaints. Various articles have explained
> that the majority of cases were just "rescan your decoder." Because there
> were two big changes. The VHF band allocations changed overnight to Euro
> standard, and all the multiplexes were reassigned after analog shutoff.
>
> Another problem was that the main RAI TV channels, RAI 1, 2, and 3,
> migrated to the RAI Mux 1, which is VHF almost everywhere. Well, surprise
> surprise, even after umpteen rescannings, lots of households were unable to
> receive the VHF multiplexes. Even though they are transmitted from three
> sites in the Rome province (Monte Mario, Monte Cavo, and Trastevere,
> channels 9, 11, and 5 respectively). So, the usual suggestions to make sure
> you have a good VHF antenna, pointing to any of these locations, etc.
>
> The URL above shows that 25 percent of respondents were unable to pick up
> the RAI Mux 1 in VHF, and only succeeded with the temporary UHF location
> for Mux 1, on Ch 25. And that 50 percent failed to receive Mux 1
> altogether. (Of course, respondents would also be likely to be folks with
> reception problems.)
>
> I'm afraid that they underpowered the VHF transmitters even there.
>
> The UHF muxes are all in SFN, from the two sites I had mentioned before,
> Monte Mario and Monte Cavo, 14 miles apart as the crow flies. However,
> since these are always Euro-green low power, the recommendations to
> antennisti read just as they would for any other big stick. Which is to
> say, point the yagi either to Monte Mario or to Monte Cavo, make sure the
> downlead is good, and so on.
>
> Of the three reception sites I'm familiar with, one worked out fine, the
> other gets Mux 1 via the temporary Ch 25 only, and the third is a work in
> progress. But they can always call on their trusted antennista.
>
> Oh, on a "grass is greener" note, one article explained how the US had
> already done all of this, and how much easier it was there. They did
> mention one of the reasons being, people have multiple choices of delivery
> media for TV, other than terrestrial.
>
> Bert
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:44:26 -0500
> From: Cliff Benham <flyback1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [opendtv] 1080p questions
>
>
> A friend asked me for some 1080p information, which I don't know the
> complete answer to. Today, so far as I can find, the only advantage of
> some 1080p sets would be that they refresh at 120 fps instead of 60.
> Are there other good reasons to buy one now?
>
> Here's his question:
>
> "I'm a TV watcher, not a DVD viewer. I have two HD TiVos (1 Series 3 and
> one HDXL.) With the huge FIOS lineup and 4 simultaneous streams of TV
> capture capability, I don't watch much DVD material. With TiVo and
> Broadcast TV pretty much limited to 1080i or 720p as their highest
> quality formats, is there any advantage to purchasing a 1080p-capable
> TV? If so, what is it?"
>
> Also, for my curiosity, are any of the satellite services DTV, Dish and
> HD Net, cable and fiber video services transmitting 1080p programming
> today on a *regular* basis, and if not, when will they start?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Cliff
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:54:27 -0500
> From: Tom Barry <trbarry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: The Rome swicthoff experience
>
> It sure seems to me the world should find something useful to do with
> (low) VHF that does not require home indoor antennas. Though maybe it's
> suited for the wide open prairies or something.
>
> How about if it was used to send from VHF big sticks to low power UHF
> repeaters with tall outdoor receiving antennas? Would that work?
>
> - Tom
>
>
> Manfredi, Albert E wrote:
>
> http://raidigitale.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/switch-off-di-roma-come-e-andata-per-rai-uno-due-e-tre/
>
>
>
>> The Rome (pop. 4M) call center reportedly got 46,000 calls by the evening
>>
> of switchoff day (16 November).
>
>> The experience in the Rome province (county) seems very similar to what
>>
> happened here. They got lots of complaints. Various articles have explained
> that the majority of cases were just "rescan your decoder." Because there
> were two big changes. The VHF band allocations changed overnight to Euro
> standard, and all the multiplexes were reassigned after analog shutoff.
>
>> Another problem was that the main RAI TV channels, RAI 1, 2, and 3,
>>
> migrated to the RAI Mux 1, which is VHF almost everywhere. Well, surprise
> surprise, even after umpteen rescannings, lots of households were unable to
> receive the VHF multiplexes. Even though they are transmitted from three
> sites in the Rome province (Monte Mario, Monte Cavo, and Trastevere,
> channels 9, 11, and 5 respectively). So, the usual suggestions to make sure
> you have a good VHF antenna, pointing to any of these locations, etc.
>
>> The URL above shows that 25 percent of respondents were unable to pick up
>>
> the RAI Mux 1 in VHF, and only succeeded with the temporary UHF location
> for Mux 1, on Ch 25. And that 50 percent failed to receive Mux 1
> altogether. (Of course, respondents would also be likely to be folks with
> reception problems.)
>
>> I'm afraid that they underpowered the VHF transmitters even there.
>>
>> The UHF muxes are all in SFN, from the two sites I had mentioned before,
>>
> Monte Mario and Monte Cavo, 14 miles apart as the crow flies. However,
> since these are always Euro-green low power, the recommendations to
> antennisti read just as they would for any other big stick. Which is to
> say, point the yagi either to Monte Mario or to Monte Cavo, make sure the
> downlead is good, and so on.
>
>> Of the three reception sites I'm familiar with, one worked out fine, the
>>
> other gets Mux 1 via the temporary Ch 25 only, and the third is a work in
> progress. But they can always call on their trusted antennista.
>
>> Oh, on a "grass is greener" note, one article explained how the US had
>>
> already done all of this, and how much easier it was there. They did
> mention one of the reasons being, people have multiple choices of delivery
> media for TV, other than terrestrial.
>
>> Bert
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>>
>> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
>>
> FreeLists.org
>
>> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
>>
> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Manfredi, Albert E" <albert.e.manfredi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 16:03:28 -0600
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
>
> Cliff Benham wrote:
>
>
>> A friend asked me for some 1080p information, which I don't know
>> the complete answer to. Today, so far as I can find, the only
>> advantage of some 1080p sets would be that they refresh at 120
>> fps instead of 60. Are there other good reasons to buy one now?
>>
>> Here's his question:
>>
>> "I'm a TV watcher, not a DVD viewer. I have two HD TiVos (1
>> Series 3 and one HDXL.) With the huge FIOS lineup and 4
>> simultaneous streams of TV capture capability, I don't watch
>> much DVD material. With TiVo and Broadcast TV pretty much
>> limited to 1080i or 720p as their highest quality formats, is
>> there any advantage to purchasing a 1080p-capable TV? If so,
>> what is it?"
>>
>> Also, for my curiosity, are any of the satellite services DTV,
>> Dish and HD Net, cable and fiber video services transmitting
>> 1080p programming today on a *regular* basis, and if not, when
>> will they start?
>>
>
> DISH and DirecTV have 1080 at 24p, starting last year.
>
> http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/3006/dishing-up-1080p.html
>
> http://www.multichannel.com/blog/The_Satellite_Dish/12323-1080p_Comes_To_DirecTV_UPDATED_.php
>
>
>
> OTA TV *could* also use this mode, which would take up about the same
> channel capacity as 720 at 60p.
>
> Bert
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Manfredi, Albert E" <albert.e.manfredi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 16:17:19 -0600
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: The Rome swicthoff experience
>
> Tom Barry wrote:
>
>
>> It sure seems to me the world should find something useful
>> to do with (low) VHF that does not require home indoor
>> antennas. Though maybe it's suited for the wide open
>> prairies or something.
>>
>
> Yes. They like low VHF in places like Alaska.
>
>
>> How about if it was used to send from VHF big sticks to
>> low power UHF repeaters with tall outdoor receiving
>> antennas? Would that work?
>>
>
> I think it would work just fine wherever you can easily wrestle a large
> antenna.
>
> Antenna size aside, I think it was Doug Lung who hit the nail on the head
> on this one. He explained in one of his articles that the FCC had simply
> not taken into account the noise level in low VHF. It's not enough to just
> say that the received signal has to be at least -85 dBm at the receiver's
> antenna input. It *also* has to have a C/N ratio >= 15.2 dB, or so.
>
> So, when they tried to cut the margin too close on the V/m signal density
> aspect of the problem, as they did with all of the VHF allocations, they
> apparently totally blew the C/N criterion in these noisy channels.
>
> Bert
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 17:18:12 -0500
> From: "Mark O'Brien" <mobrien@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> I would say the tradeoff is price vs. longer useful life. While there
> is limited 1080p content now, there is certainly going to be more in the
> future. 720p and 1080i sets are most likely older with fewer features,
> older electronics, slower refresh rates, etc. All else being equal, you
> should get a better picture (darker blacks, better motion, etc.) with a
> 1080p set. Not because of the resolution, but because the overall
> technology is likely to be better.
>
> The real question is what is the premium and how much will you be
> disappointed if five years from now the content you want to watch is in
> 1080P and you can only see it in 720p. If you are sitting far enough
> away from the set and won't be able to tell the difference, or will not
> care, then consider that against the extra cost. If you will be
> disappointed if that happens in five years, factor that in against the
> 1080p premium.
>
> The short-term benefit is likely to be better electronics and features
> (i.e., internet widgets). If you are watching mostly OTV TV, cable,
> FIOS, etc. you will not see a resolution benefit until they upgrade
> their systems, which is not a certainty.
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Cliff Benham
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:44 PM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] 1080p questions
>
>
> A friend asked me for some 1080p information, which I don't know the
> complete answer to. Today, so far as I can find, the only advantage of
> some 1080p sets would be that they refresh at 120 fps instead of 60.
> Are there other good reasons to buy one now?
>
> Here's his question:
>
> "I'm a TV watcher, not a DVD viewer. I have two HD TiVos (1 Series 3 and
>
> one HDXL.) With the huge FIOS lineup and 4 simultaneous streams of TV
> capture capability, I don't watch much DVD material. With TiVo and
> Broadcast TV pretty much limited to 1080i or 720p as their highest
> quality formats, is there any advantage to purchasing a 1080p-capable
> TV? If so, what is it?"
>
> Also, for my curiosity, are any of the satellite services DTV, Dish and
> HD Net, cable and fiber video services transmitting 1080p programming
> today on a *regular* basis, and if not, when will they start?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Cliff
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>
> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
> FreeLists.org
>
> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:41:54 -0500
> From: Tom Barry <trbarry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
>
> I think all modern fixed pixel displays are progressive (720p, 768p,
> 1080p, etc.). But the early ones could not always accept a 1080p input
> signal. To me the best thing about 1080p displays is they make great
> (large) computer monitors. However mine still has only a 60Hz refresh
> rate so that is not a difference in 1080p.
>
> I didn't think any platform was yet transmitting 1080p/60 or above yet,
> but could be wrong.
>
> - Tom
>
>
> Cliff Benham wrote:
>
>> A friend asked me for some 1080p information, which I don't know the
>> complete answer to. Today, so far as I can find, the only advantage of
>> some 1080p sets would be that they refresh at 120 fps instead of 60.
>> Are there other good reasons to buy one now?
>>
>> Here's his question:
>>
>> "I'm a TV watcher, not a DVD viewer. I have two HD TiVos (1 Series 3
>> and one HDXL.) With the huge FIOS lineup and 4 simultaneous streams of
>> TV capture capability, I don't watch much DVD material. With TiVo and
>> Broadcast TV pretty much limited to 1080i or 720p as their highest
>> quality formats, is there any advantage to purchasing a 1080p-capable
>> TV? If so, what is it?"
>>
>> Also, for my curiosity, are any of the satellite services DTV, Dish
>> and HD Net, cable and fiber video services transmitting 1080p
>> programming today on a *regular* basis, and if not, when will they start?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>>
>> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
>> FreeLists.org
>> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
>> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of opendtv Digest V6 #290
> *****************************
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
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> unsubscribe in the subject line.
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: Kilroy Hughes <Kilroy.Hughes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: 1080p questions
> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 04:10:21 +0000
>
> About the only sources of 24P signals I'm aware of are some Blu-ray players
> and PCs, and most content of interest is protected, so that means HDMI (or
> DVI with HDCP) signals.
>
> An increasing number of newer and higher quality big screens support 24P
> HDMI input, and "one to one" 1920x1080 sample to pixel mapping to preserve
> the original image quality (by not doing bad things with a deinterlacer or
> by scaling and cropping to simulate "overscan"). They often combine other
> "cinema mode" settings for things like color temp, black level, and gamma
> optimized for film content and home theater viewing.
>
> However, a majority of the TV I watch is shot on film at 24p, telecined,
> edited, and broadcast at 30i. (movies, most dramatic series, etc. vs sports
> and news) Also, almost everything on DVD is 24p stored and output as 30i
> with repeat fields.
>
> Most new TVs do a good job of inverse telecine, where they throw away the
> repeat fields, reconstruct the original 24p capture, and preferably blink
> it 5 or 10 times (called 120Hz or 240Hz "refresh" ... as though LCDs and
> plasmas don't stay lit or something. Apparently it has to do with some
> ancient ritual involving electron beams.).
>
> So there's plenty of 108024P content to watch, but we've made it as hard as
> possible to do so, so you need a smart TV to put Humpty back together
> again.
>
> Kilroy Hughes
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Cliff Benham
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:44 PM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] 1080p questions
>
>
> A friend asked me for some 1080p information, which I don't know the
> complete answer to. Today, so far as I can find, the only advantage of some
> 1080p sets would be that they refresh at 120 fps instead of 60.
> Are there other good reasons to buy one now?
>
> Here's his question:
>
> "I'm a TV watcher, not a DVD viewer. I have two HD TiVos (1 Series 3 and
> one HDXL.) With the huge FIOS lineup and 4 simultaneous streams of TV
> capture capability, I don't watch much DVD material. With TiVo and
> Broadcast TV pretty much limited to 1080i or 720p as their highest quality
> formats, is there any advantage to purchasing a 1080p-capable TV? If so,
> what is it?"
>
> Also, for my curiosity, are any of the satellite services DTV, Dish and HD
> Net, cable and fiber video services transmitting 1080p programming today on
> a *regular* basis, and if not, when will they start?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Cliff
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>
> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
> FreeLists.org
>
> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of opendtv Digest V6 #291
> *****************************
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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