Hi,
Well, NVDA sees the text spanning over what it seems to think are six separate
objects. If you look at the dialog though, it seems that the information spans
several lines (I.E. uses \n).
Cheers.
Kind regards,
Damien.
From: driemer.riemer@xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:06 PM
To: nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get started?
Can you please explain more by what you mean by span multiple lines? I am
trying to figure out whether simple name changing code or text info code would
be better. Once I can get a better feel for the way this app is working I might
be able to explain thought processes I would go through to write an app module
for this.
Sent from my heavily encrypted iPhone.
Please disregard errors as this is a smaller device.
On Apr 14, 2016, at 14:00, Damien Sykes-Pendleton <damien@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi,
They are all at the same level, but they also have the information that is
read out as well as that that isn’t. All the objects seem to be located in the
dialog level, including buttons, lists and these six labels that span multiple
lines, which is why I think NVDA saw it as six separate controls.
Here’s what I found about the parent object:
INFO - globalCommands.GlobalCommands.script_navigatorObject_devInfo
(20:52:00):
Developer info for navigator object:
name: u''
role: ROLE_DIALOG
states: STATE_FOCUSABLE
isFocusable: True
hasFocus: False
Python object: <NVDAObjects.Dynamic_DialogIAccessibleWindowNVDAObject object
at 0x04E2F230>
Python class mro: (<class
'NVDAObjects.Dynamic_DialogIAccessibleWindowNVDAObject'>, <class
'NVDAObjects.behaviors.Dialog'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IAccessible'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class
'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class 'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type
'object'>)
description: u'Spouse\n7th Great-Grandmother\nMarriage
Date\nChildren\nBirth/*BR Date\nB:\nM:\nD:\n1727 - Childwall, Lancashire,
England\n5 Jun 1748 - Childwall, Prescot, Lancashire, England (Age 21)\n1796 -
Prescot, Lancashire, England (Age 69)\nJohn Pendleton'
location: (2, 77, 796, 459)
value: None
appModule: <'appModuleHandler' (appName u'ancquest', process ID 8572) at
address 4d8a7f0>
appModule.productName: u'Ancestral Quest 14.0'
appModule.productVersion: u'14.00.0028.0'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 67886
windowClassName: u'#32770'
windowControlID: 59648
windowStyle: 1342177348
windowThreadID: 11096
windowText: u''
displayText: u' Family Pedigree Name List Individual
Timeline English (Default)John PendletonFatherB:1727 - Childwall, Lancashire,
EnglandM:5 Jun 1748 - Childwall, Prescot, Lancashire, England (Age 21)D:1796 -
Prescot, Lancash (Age 69)Root P' (truncated)
IAccessibleObject: <POINTER(IAccessible) ptr=0xba43fa0 at 4e42ad0>
IAccessibleChildID: 0
IAccessible event parameters: windowHandle=67886, objectID=-4, childID=0
IAccessible accName: u''
IAccessible accRole: ROLE_SYSTEM_DIALOG
IAccessible accState: STATE_SYSTEM_FOCUSABLE, STATE_SYSTEM_VALID (1048576)
IAccessible accDescription: None
IAccessible accValue: None
Kind regards,
Damien.
From: derek riemer
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:22 PM
To: nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get started?
Hi,
Can you pull some add-ons down from the repo (bitbucket.org/nvdaaddonteam)?
It helps to look at other peoples code. Also, I see there that the window class
name has no useful info. look at the window control id's,, window handles, and
other attributes. You might be able to use a nameChange event to find that
window.
You should mess around with the name change event.
When I say looping through the objects, do you see a parent object with
children and each child has several objects?
"other kind of separation? For some reason according to object navigation the
control seems to be separated into six objects."
how are the objects related to eachother?
On 4/14/2016 12:45 PM, Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Hi,
How do I know what is unique about them? There is a lot of info there that
I wouldn’t even know where to start with.
Even if I could find what I was looking for, I don’t even know how I would
access it programatically.
Kind regards,
Damien.
From: driemer.riemer@xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 6:56 PM
To: nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get started?
Is there anything unique about where those objects are? You could probably
figure out a way to loop through all of those objects in there to announce each
of the info for all of them. It looks like the info is readily available in the
name so I name change might do it but I'm not certain
Sent from my heavily encrypted iPhone.
Please disregard errors as this is a smaller device.
On Apr 14, 2016, at 06:11, Damien Sykes-Pendleton
<damien@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Derek,
The log reads as follows:
INFO - globalCommands.GlobalCommands.script_navigatorObject_devInfo
(13:00:34):
Developer info for navigator object:
name: u'1727 - Childwall, Lancashire, England'
role: ROLE_WINDOW
states: STATE_FOCUSABLE
isFocusable: True
hasFocus: False
Python object: <NVDAObjects.IAccessible.WindowRoot object at 0x04C93DD0>
Python class mro: (<class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.WindowRoot'>, <class
'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.GenericWindow'>, <class
'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IAccessible'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class 'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class
'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: None
location: (35, 124, 344, 16)
value: None
appModule: <'appModuleHandler' (appName u'ancquest', process ID 6864) at
address 4adba30>
appModule.productName: u'Ancestral Quest 14.0'
appModule.productVersion: u'14.00.0028.0'
TextInfo: <class 'displayModel.DisplayModelTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 1574452
windowClassName: u'Static'
windowControlID: 289
windowStyle: 1342177292
windowThreadID: 9772
windowText: u'1727 - Childwall, Lancashire, England'
displayText: u'1727 - Childwall, Lancashire, England'
IAccessibleObject: <POINTER(IAccessible) ptr=0x8f6ad70 at 4e42b70>
IAccessibleChildID: 0
IAccessible event parameters: windowHandle=1574452L, objectID=0,
childID=0L
IAccessible accName: u'1727 - Childwall, Lancashire, England'
IAccessible accRole: ROLE_SYSTEM_WINDOW
IAccessible accState: STATE_SYSTEM_FOCUSABLE, STATE_SYSTEM_VALID (1048576)
IAccessible accDescription: None
IAccessible accValue: None
I notice it is only giving us the birth year. I’m wondering if this is
because of multiline or some other kind of separation? For some reason
according to object navigation the control seems to be separated into six
objects.
Kind regards,
Damien.
From: derek riemer
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 12:39 AM
To: nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get
started?
My first advice is to try and turn off simple navigation in review
settings. (I created a configuration profile for this). Now, use object
navigation to see if you can spot that text. If you can, can you press nvda+f1,
copy the rest of the log from there to the bottom and paste it here (assuming
it's not private info in any way)? That is called the developer info. we should
probably see where that information is, and if it actually changes at all.
Then, we would either create event_BLABLABLA or something. We might either
design the add-on with an overlay class, or with an simple events on the global
plugin, and then speak it. The idea is to figure out where that text is, and
then a way in which to figure out if the object the event is fired on is that
object or if it's another object. also, we need to figure out if the event ever
gains keyboard focus, as that we can fix by telling NVDA to set focus to it.
Does any of this not make sense (should I explain any particular concept
in more detail)?
On 4/13/2016 4:45 PM, Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Hi,
The program is a family tree builder – so far the only accessible one I
have found.
When you select a person in the primary navigation area it shows up
summary information for them, (date and place of birth, date, place, and age at
marriage, and date, place and age at death). This read automatically when I
used to use JAWS, so I’m guessing it’s a simple case of trying to tell NVDA
where that information is, and/or how to access it so that it too can speak the
information automatically.
Kind regards,
Damien.
From: derek riemer
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:30 PM
To: nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get
started?
Can you give an example of what the text you want spoken is and when it
isn't spoken?
On 4/13/2016 1:36 PM, Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Hi there,
Not sure if my messages came through yesterday, so sending it again.
When I began the process of trying to learn addon development, I
attempted to write an application-based addon that would read textual
information that was otherwise being overlooked. I may have used another addon
as a starting point but I had no idea as to what the actual issue was or what
my particular circumstances were, other than the text was not being read when
it should be.
What I vaguely know is that the system creates controls as physical
graphics with different identifying factors such as locations and what should
happen if it is activated that make it what it is. I know nothing about how it
works in depth – I’m not even sure if it is a control object that is at fault,
since the information is text only.
I can’t even refer back to my script, my computer crashed since then,
and as it didn’t work I don’t think that would necessarily help anyway.
One thing I did manage is to apply the first example app module to
the application I want to change as opposed to Notepad, I.E. making it beep on
the gain focus event. Even if I so much as moved the cursor, pressed Tab, went
into menus etc, it beeped all the time, so not sure if that’s to do with
keyboard input or whatever. If so then that’s not the issue. Key commands are
being recognised fine, it’s just what is, or in this case isn’t, being spoken
by NVDA itself.
I really would like to tackle this and nip it in the bud. I doubt at
this moment in time I could work on NVDA itself given my limited knowledge of
how both the codebase and the project management works, so I guess the least I
can do is to write addons.
Thanks.
Kind regards,
Damien.
From: derek riemer
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 5:59 PM
To: nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get
started?
Hi,
It really depends what you intend your add-on to do. Do you think
some code should execute? Test it by either importing logHandler, and logging
with one of the methods there, or use tones.beep to beep as the first thing
that happens in that function. Also, it shouldn't play the error sound unless
you are running master or next. Look for errors in your log, test your add-on
with master or next, or go to the NVDA python console and run >>> import
versionInfo
>>> versionInfo.isTestVersion = True
Then the sound should happen. You could write an add-on to set this
to true at NVDA Startup (Hint) just putting that in a python file in the
globalPlugins folder should do it. Do not be afraid to ask us questions if you
have a hypothesis about some control, and a way in which you are trying to make
it work. I promise you, there are no dumb questions here. If it is a script, be
sure to bind it to a gesture. If it is one of the meriad of events, then you
may very well just have to play with trying multiple events until you find the
right one. That's where making NVDA play different tones for different events
is super helpful.
HTH
On 4/12/2016 10:32 AM, Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Hi there,
OK. So I now have a fair grasp of the Python language. Luckily
because I’ve tried so many times before and failed it was just a case of
refreshing my memory as to what different things meant, and reading more
in-depth those things that I didn’t understand. I think it kind of helped that
the easy stuff was, well, easy, and the harder stuff I have covered before in
other languages, but they are termed or written differently. I think one thing
that confused me a lot when I started out is how all classes inherit from
object, when an instance of a class is also called an object. Wow...Deep stuff.
Also, this time, I have seen Python code in action, having
installed Python itself. It’s odd, but I think that helped me more than I
realised it would. Reading code and then seeing it work seems to impress things
more firmly into memory (Human, that is).
Now that I’ve done that, it seems when I tried this before that the
thing I was struggling with most were NVDA concepts. There were no errors
triggered (At least I don’t think), but the addon itself that I created didn’t
work.
Is there anything else I need to look at? The development guide has
become a little easier in some respects but I’m still in the dark about others,
for instance application controls, accessing them, reading them, event
triggers, etc.
Thanks.
Kind regards,
Damien.
From: derek riemer
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 6:17 PM
To: nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get
started?
Hi,
Please feel free to ask us (especially me) anyy development
questions you have. I can try to help. Please believe me when I say I know
where you are coming from, I had to learn all this myself, and it is damn hard.
Even if you ask "This button is not speaking, How should I try to make it
speak?" I will try to walk you in the right direction.
On 4/8/2016 5:56 AM, Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Hi James,
Again. This proves just how much, or little, knowledge I have on
this subject. I always assumed that the information that NVDA uses to evaluate
the functionality or purpose of a control was through the Windows API. When I
wrote my first addon that didn't involve copying and pasting from an example,
it was to read content that NVDA didn't recognise on its own for whatever
reason, that other screen readers did. This didn't work. My theory for this is
that I was pretty much guessing what I had to do to get it to work, and of
course that is not the way to understand your own code. It helps to understand
what your code needs to do, something of which I understood very little, if not
nothing at all. If you can't understand that, you need to be able to understand
what you want to do. Although I know what I want to do in terms of
functionality, translating that into code is very difficult, given that I don't
know about all the underlying structures such as in-depth control information
(ID, handle, class etc), NVDA objects, accessibility platforms, the list goes
on and on.
As for learning Python itself, this is not so much the problem as
remembering every single thing I'm reading. When I look at a Python tutorial,
I'm thinking, yes this makes sense. Sounds good to me. Oh wow, I've finished
the tutorial. Let's go back to addons. Oh wait, what did the tutorial say about
this? I don't remember that part...Look back at the tutorial. Oh, it's not in
here. This must be an NVDA specific reference. Either that, or, Ah yes, I
remember this now. Now how was the addon guide referencing this?
I'm trying to explain it the best way I can, because there isn't
one specific example or situation that I can pinpoint without referencing
something else, it's all linked, hence the massive confusion which, if we're
talking code, is making my brain go into an infinite loop.
Kind regards,
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: James Scholes
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 12:25 PM
To: nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to
get started?
Replies inline.
Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Well if we're constraining ourselves to the facts, I can only
really
say what I have said before, in that the developer guide
assumes a
good working knowledge of Python and NVDA's internal workings,
neither of which I feel I have enough of to really get going.
First, tackle Python. You need a good, working knowledge of the
language to write NVDA add-ons. This will never change, no
matter how
much documentation is written. Create some small Python projects
which
make use of object-oriented programming, inheritance, wxPython.
It is incredibly important to understand that creating NVDA
add-ons is
not at all like writing JAWS scripts. With JAWS scripting, the
language
is proprietary and the creators of that language decide in
advance what
functionality you have access to. NVDA not only gives you the
full
power of the Python language, but also lets you write code which
runs in
the same environment as NVDA's core, meaning that you can
literally do
whatever you like, only constrained by your imagination and
knowledge.
Naturally, this provides a lot of room for error, so NVDA add-on
writing
often comes with a lot of responsibility. That is why there is
a
higher barrier to entry. It's up to you to decide whether that
barrier
is worth scaling or not. But nobody, on this list or otherwise,
will ever be able to create documentation that explains every
possible
aspect of creating NVDA add-ons. Having said that, the community
has
created some extra documentation, which I will leave it up to
them to share.
I have looked into Python, both on the official language
tutorial
and from Learn Python the Hard Way. Although these are both
good
resources, they are also very extensive to the point that by
the
time I have read them and gone back to the developer guide, I'm
trying to conceptualise everything else into Python terms
rather than
NVDA terms
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. NVDA is Python.
Granted, to
write a good add-on, you have to be aware of some of NVDA's
internals,
but really, you need to give us examples of what you're trying to
do and
why it's posing a problem. If you have a good understanding of
Python
as I said above, writing NVDA add-on boilerplate will be easy.
some of which can be done but easily forgotten, or others which
can't
be done at all.
Again, I have no idea what you mean. What Python features,
functionality or concepts are you having difficulty translating
into
valid concepts to be used in an NVDA add-on?
Then, as I have also said before, there
is the vagueness of references, such as "Refer to the NVDA code
documentation". I cannot find this documentation anywhere, even
in
the NVDA source code.
If you check out the NVDA source code and read the accompanying
readme
files, you will see instructions on generating the NVDA code
documentation. You can also browse an online copy, although I
don't
think it's updated on a regular basis, at:
https://files.derekriemer.com/nvda/module-tree.html ;
Honestly though, I think most NVDA developers will tell you that
reading
the code itself is usually better than the documentation. If
you're
hoping that the code documentation will shine a light on
everything that
has hitherto seemed confusing, you'll be seriously disappointed.
The
code documentation is constructed from Python docstrings. It's a
terse
reference, not a guide.
Even so, I doubt I'd be able to glean much
from it, since NVDA has a lot of in-depth interaction with the
operating system which, when it comes to development, I know
hardly
anything about the workings of. This then also adds the Windows
API
to my reference list, and now I feel like I am on a road of
information overload.
Any portions of the Windows API that are used by NVDA have
already been
wrapped as simple Python functions for use in higher level
abstractions.
Unless you need to use a part of it that hasn't already been
defined as
such, you don't need to understand the ins and outs of that.
Additionally, it's highly unlikely that, for your first add-ons,
you'll
even need to use such functionality. Rather, you'll interact
with the
abstractions that NVDA provides.
To sum up:
1. Learn Python. If you don't know the language, if you can't
write
scripts or small programs in it, you will have a hard time
writing code
for NVDA.
2. Get familiar with reading other people's Python code. You'll
be
doing a lot of that if you want to create high quality add-ons.
3. Give us examples of things you're finding hard. We don't need
an
article, we just need you to explain what you don't understand so
we can
point you in the right direction.
4. Don't run before you can walk. If you're struggling with how
to
create the most basic of add-ons, the Windows API isn't even a
distant
concern.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Riemer
a.. Department of computer science, third year undergraduate
student.
b.. Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
c.. Open source enthusiast.
d.. Member of Bridge Cu
e.. Avid skiier.
Websites:
Honors portfolio
Awesome little hand built weather app!
mailto:derek.riemer@xxxxxxxxxxxx ;
Phone: (303) 906-2194
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Riemer
a.. Department of computer science, third year undergraduate
student.
b.. Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
c.. Open source enthusiast.
d.. Member of Bridge Cu
e.. Avid skiier.
Websites:
Honors portfolio
Awesome little hand built weather app!
mailto:derek.riemer@xxxxxxxxxxxx ;
Phone: (303) 906-2194
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Riemer
a.. Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
b.. Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
c.. Open source enthusiast.
d.. Member of Bridge Cu
e.. Avid skiier.
Websites:
Honors portfolio
Awesome little hand built weather app!
mailto:derek.riemer@xxxxxxxxxxxx ;
Phone: (303) 906-2194
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Riemer
a.. Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
b.. Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
c.. Open source enthusiast.
d.. Member of Bridge Cu
e.. Avid skiier.
Websites:
Honors portfolio
Awesome little hand built weather app!
mailto:derek.riemer@xxxxxxxxxxxx ;
Phone: (303) 906-2194
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Riemer
a.. Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
b.. Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
c.. Open source enthusiast.
d.. Member of Bridge Cu
e.. Avid skiier.
Websites:
Honors portfolio
Awesome little hand built weather app!
mailto:derek.riemer@xxxxxxxxxxxx ;
Phone: (303) 906-2194